Quality of life and difficult decisions

Hi all, I generally have been doing more lurking than writing recently but I just wanted to pose a question to ya’all as I’m sure as being pet owners most if not all of you can relate or may have even had a similar experience.

Husband and I recently purchased a young female hognose (leaving out other details so as not to call anyone out or sound like I’m placing blame). When she arrived (overnight shipping) I unpacked her, as I have many animals in the past. Took the lid off her deli and she comes rocketing out like those old spring snake in the peanut can I’m sure some of our older members remember. I got hold of her and she seemed alright other than being crazy squirmy. And into her set up bin she goes. (I also have additional hognoses in identical setups who are doing and have been doing very well)

There’s a few inches of substrate for digging as well as multiple hides and clutter. Temperature gradient where she can choose to warm up or cool down. Water bowl cleaned and replaced daily with fresh water. Same source and sanitation protocols as all our other snakes and lizards.

I place a pinky mouse (frozen thawed) in a ramekin (smallish bowl) for her every 5 days as I do my other juvenile hoggies. Don’t see her too much and the mouse is always gone within a matter of hours if not by the next morning. Generally just leaving her be to let her get settled in.

Awhile later (about 2 weeks or so at this point) I do a full bedding change and I notice she’s acting odd/spastic while I have her out. Pass it off as general hognose drama. Clean, put everything back together, and back in she goes. (To immediately wiggle off under the substrate).

Well next time this bedding change goes down she’s still acting odd. And I notice her holding her body extremely rigid and she seems to be having uncontrolled twitching in her tail and is swinging her head around oddly and showing signs of corkscrewing.

Try to get ahold of individual who we acquired her from to ask if he’d had any issues with his other snakes acting similarly or he had seen anything like this before. They ask for video and I never hear back after that.

Make a vet appointment. They do X-ray (looks normal) also do a fecal and test for crypto. Everything comes back negative. We discuss checking her blood for viruses/bacteria/other levels of vitamins/what have you but she’s so small the only way they can pull enough blood is a cardiac stick. And being as she’s so small (16 grams) the vet said she didn’t feel completely comfortable doing it. We discussed euthanasia and a necropsy following to check for potential communicable issues but when I told her she had still been eating (though much slower) than my other snakes she said perhaps I should take her home and keep her under quarantine and continue to see if she eats and shows any improvement. (Vet made a mention sometimes trauma that may not be visible has a chance…. Small…. But a chance…. To improve over time).

Take her home. Trade out the bedding for paper towels. She’s still incredibly stiff. Has problems moving about. (She’s very unbalanced) but still has a ridiculous feeding response. She was unable to shed on her own and I had to very carefully assist her.

I’m at the point where as much as I hope she’s going to get better I still believe she can’t be comfortable or happy in the state she’s in. I’ve cried an unbelievable amount of tears over her the past few weeks. My husband is of the mindset that if she’s eating still she can’t be that uncomfortable. Also he wants to give her time.

I’m sure there’s no right or wrong answer, but has anyone else here been in a similar situation or perhaps have input on what would be best for her.
I’d like to give her a fighting chance if I can but I also don’t want to be selfish and keep an unhappy animal in possible pain and misery.

Any input or discussion appreciated. I really just wanted someone else to vent to since I feel so unbelievably lost at the moment. Thanks so much.

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This sounds terrible, hopefully it gets better. Can you provide details about the enclosure size, temps, heating source, humidity, etc. Does she only do this when being handled or out of the cage?

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I have no input, but my heart goes out to you. I know this is very difficult. :pensive:

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I’d say the enclosure is roughly 12-14inches long. 8 8 inches wide. 5-6inches tall. (Currently at work so I do not have access to the actual container at the moment to get exact measurements). Bedding I was using was bio dude terra-Sahara.(prior to the paper towels) Humidity was generally about 50% give or take 5% in either direction up or down. Cool side of enclosure kept at 75. Warm side varies from 84-89. She’s got a moist hide on the warm end. A dry hide there as well. A dry hide on the cool side as well as various pieces of cork bark and artificial foliage that was all washed and/or boiled prior to use. And it doesn’t matter if I’m holding her or letting her chill out alone she still is exhibiting these presumably neurological issues. Only time I see her perk up is when it’s feeding time and it takes her a good 5-10 minutes to get locked on to her prey unless I steer the front end towards her mouth and gently hold her sides to guide her to it. She swallows slowly but seems to have no issues otherwise in that regard

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This thread might help identify any problems.

The enclosure sounds a bit big but if 3 sides are covered it might be okay. Aspen would be a better bedding, could you lower the humidity some? How deep is the substrate? It might also help to raise the warm side to 90-93 and cool side to about 80. How often are you checking on her? Does she show these symptoms when she doesn’t know you’re there? It could be that you’re stressing her out from checking on her.

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Check on her in the morning and evening. Generally to spot clean and change the water if necessary. Keep handling to an absolute minimum (only to sanitize the enclosure weekly) 2TBS chlorohexidine to one gallon water. Have spare sanitized containers available so it’s just a quick move from one box to another. Did soak her the other day (warm dechlorinated water with a pinch of zoo-med reptile electrolyte powder, and help (very gently) to remove stuck shed. Temps I can adjust. Humidity might be a bit more difficult as I’m in south Florida. Perhaps the aspen may help with that and I’m willing to give anything a try. The sides of her tub are blacked out. The lid is semi transparent and I have caught her swinging her head from side to side in an abnormal fashion as well as the difficulty moving about and tail spasms when I’m fairly sure she didn’t know I was present. (Didn’t open the lid or disturb the container for a few hours prior) . Also definitely going to read the link. Appreciate the help/input

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Thank you. Lost pets in the past in my 40 years of life and dealing with sickness and loss never gets any easier. :frowning:

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In that case I’m really not sure. The only other thing I can think of is if your thermostat is wrong and your temperatures are too high but if you’re checking them with a thermometer that’s unlikely.

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Were her tubs treated with anything beforehand? I’ve read that baby hoggies can be quite sensitive to preventative mite treatments.

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Husband and I both check almost to the point of OCD with a temperature gun as well as have a digital battery operated humidity/temperature monitor in just about everyone’s enclosures. Generally at least once a day (each of us) with the temp gun…. honestly one of my first concerns was maybe temps being too high/thermostat failure. Beating myself up thinking maybe I grabbed her too roughly when she tried to go shooting out of her deli cup on arrival. Worried maybe she was dropped during shipping or overheated during shipping. Maybe a breeder issue. Maybe not. Still think it wasn’t cool to get ghosted when I was just asking for input from them. (Wasn’t looking for a refund or an exchange) was more concerned with getting her right. And sorry for the ranting. It just sucks. Ya know?

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Nothin. We don’t even use laundry detergent with anything allergenic. No aerosol sprays. No candles. No bug sprays. We also keep aquariums so we’re doubly paranoid about that sort of thing.

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@wulfsign brings up a good point. Chemicals can often cause neurological damage, especially to smaller snakes. I haven’t used chlorhexidine for cleaning so I don’t know if your ratios are right or not but there could be another chemical that she was exposed to causing problems.

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We rinse with lots of fresh water and allow everything to dry out before we use the sanitized containers. I’m beating my brain trying to sort out what happened. I agree with the chemical angle being a possibility but the only time I can even think of her coming in contact of something chemical related is potentially during shipping (she came fed-ex but being a postal employee people mail some weird stuff and things do leak/let off fumes on occasion) or maybe washing and drying enclosures and furniture on our covered patio outside. We don’t use fertilizers or pesticides personally but I can’t speak for sure about the neighbors. Either way this whole situation is making me even more paranoid about possible exposure to undesirable substances

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If she came like this it could have been from the breeders. You could try messaging them asking if they’ve used mite treatment or another chemical and hope you get a response.

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I’ll give it a shot. I’ve been trying for a week to no avail but doesn’t hurt to try again. I also strip down and bathe after work before I start tending to the animals so I’m sure I didn’t touch or handle anything at work that could have harmed them either.

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As far as issues arising from chemical exposure is that something that has the potential to get less severe as time goes on or is it basically anyone’s best guess/hope and wait?

I have no qualms about caring for a “special needs” pet that needs a little more forethought put into its care, feeding, housing, etc. I just feel completely heartbroken that she seems to look so uncomfortable most of the time.

I know many people (myself included to a degree) tend to anthropomorphize their animals at least somewhat but I can’t imagine being in a state of near constant uncontrolled muscle tension/spasms, issues shedding without assistance, drinking (I’m honestly afraid of her possibly drowning so I keep only the smallest amount of water in a wide shallow bowl, and issues eating without being frustrated and in pain. I feel selfish if I’m prolonging her inevitable passing but in the same right I’ll feel guilty if I don’t give her a chance to turn around (if it’s possible). When is enough enough? Hypothetical question/typing aloud because I don’t believe, at least in my heart, it’s a question that truly can be answered in black and white.

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There’s no way to predict it. It could get better with age but then it might not. If it doesn’t you just have to analyze her quality of life. Is she suffering or still living a good life (this is hard to do without anthropomorphism).

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I hear you. I appreciate the input and discussing with me. Makes me feel a little less upset about the whole thing even if it does still suck. I’m going to give her some more time and go from there. And pray everything does work out for the best regardless of what happens. Having fish and reptiles I have learned sometimes things happen that can’t be helped or seemingly for no reason at all. Even just failure to thrive. Just have to allow that to truly sink in completely. Life (and death) happen as well as everything in between. Just have to roll with it. I try to take comfort in while my animals are with me I try to give them the best life I can provide. Regardless of how long that may be.

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I’m no expert, but was there any chance she got overheated during shipping? I know Alex Green/ goherping is a bit controversial, but the symptoms you listed sound similar to an issue they had with an otherwise healthy bp that got overheated during a shipping incident.

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Chlorhexidine isn’t at all likely to be the cause of your issue.

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