Requesting direction for educational resources

Pythons Ball Pythons
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Hello. I am interested in learning everything possible about the genetic science and animal husbandry of ball pythons. I have been interested in becoming a breeder for some time, but have remained on the sidelines due to the over saturation of the market created by Covid. A couple of years ago there were 45K balls for sale on MM and today there are around 28K. I am wondering if this has been felt by breeders in an appreciable way, and / or is a sign of a correction in the market that is likely to continue improving.

I’m still trying to learn as much about genetics and morphs as possible. It is simply overwhelming and I have no idea to begin. I Would appreciate some direction toward a comprehensive educational resource.

I wonder how common it is to find an established breeder who is willing to mentor a prospective entrant into the business side of the hobby.

For now, can someone give me an idea of what morphs I should consider investing into to begin my hobby business. The last thing I want to do is contribute to the production of any wild type balls. I don’t even want to make a snake that isn’t worth at least $500. I went a reptile show in Georgia over the weekend and was disappointed to see grown snakes being sold for $100.

I fell in love with the stormtrooper ball that was produced a few years back. I was disappointed but not surprised to see that snake never proliferated into the market and reached an attainable price. However, I didn’t see any for sale at all.

I really like the motley golden child reticulated pythons, the black ones with rainbow iridescence that look like oil spills. But I don’t want to have animals that large in my home. I have seen some very orange balls that I thought were very appealing. They weren’t however, very expensive.

I see an orange ghost pastel enchi selling for only $200 on here. I found that surprising. I admittedly know nothing, but one of the first things I noticed was that the more traits an animal carries, the more it can recreate. I would have thought that might have made the snake more expensive.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

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This is a pretty basic ball python combo by all points and purposes.
Orange Ghost is just a particular line of hypo. Enchi and pastel are ridiculously common genes.

If you like the looks of a dark retic you can always consider something like white lipped pythons. They’re smaller and less common. But can be a bit more advanced to keep from what I hear.

That’s because the increasing melanin aspect of it was never able to be pinned down. There is no way to reliably reproduce it. If there was they definitely would be in demand seeing as the 8ball complex has facial deformities and kink issues.

Imo you don’t become a hobby breeder by wanting to make money. You do it because you love the animals.

If you’re only in it for the money, you have to have a lot of knowledge of the genes you’re planning on working with, a lot of startup cash for breeding stock and be a high tier patron on a large breeder’s Patreon for mentoring.

I haven’t done any mentoring under a breeder myself. I’ve owned reptiles for quite a long while and worked in veterinary for a bit. I ask a couple of breeders ID options from time to time maybe, but otherwise all of my knowledge is from digging through Morphipedia here, looking through forum posts or just eyeballing combos on the sales page.
I started with a couple of genes I liked the look of, Orange Ghost and BEL genes. Took the time to research some more and branched out to a couple other gene projects. Eventually I’ll see if the newer projects pan out. Lol.

I’m still breeding for the animals I want to see. Maybe one day I’ll produce $500 animals. But getting the experience and raising these little guys to me is more valuable then spending thousands on breeding animals to produce $500+ only. Without the experience you may see issues as well… I’ve been lucky enough to only lose one breeding animal from what looks like an autoimmune issue. I see people jumping in and failing to incubate properly or end up not realizing they needed to know a vet before breeding because of eggbinding or prolapses.

I can’t tell you if the data means the market is balancing.
I feel like most of the market has a strange idol complex that they’re chasing. There’s always a race to catch up with particular breeders with stacked recessive combos and multiple other genes. By the time they raise up a hatchling they are already behind on the next big thing …
Sure people getting into it for a quick buck during covid may be dropping out a bit. Some of the older breeders are reevaluating and cutting down production as well.
It’s also very early in the year. I have 30 I hatched out in the last month with more eggs on the way. So at the end of the year that number may go up again.

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Thank you for your help. Can you help me understand where I would even begin to learn about the genetics of these animals?

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Are you trying to learn how genetics work for recessive, incomplete dominant and dominant? Or are you trying to learn what morphs mix well, visually?

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Honestly, the fact that I understand almost none of what you said means that I need research to teach me all of the above, and then some. For now, o want to know what I could start with that would retain its value until I have learned enough to be ready. What two juveniles could I acquire and learn more about husbandry while they reach sexual maturity that will pair well.

Or even if I can afford what I want to create. I love the vibrant orange snakes. One of them is the most expensive snake on MM right now. But I have seen some that are more affordable. However, I have been given to believe that snakes loose the vibrancy of their color as they age.

And it doesn’t have to be orange. Very bright in any color would be great. So long as it stays bright.

Thanks for your help.

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I don’t breed BPs, full disclosure. I do vend at expos and talk to the BP breeders to get a feel for that part of the herp market (which is very different from the areas of the hobby that I inhabit, so these are enlightening conversations). They’ll sit on snakes they produced for years, watching them lose value – similarly, there are plenty of 3-4 year old BPs in the MM listings that have been listed since not long after hatching. I go to Tinley and look at the 50% off everything signs on the BP breeders’ tables and then talk to the vendor only to be told that this is just where the discounts start, and serious buyers should be ready for a serious deal.

This comment (along with the vet needs, and love>money observations, of course) is so spot on:

It is worth considering, too, how many castoffs are produced in these stacking processes; these may well be a big percentage of the $100 snakes that aren’t selling. This is a big problem with animals that live 40 years, especially – they don’t die from poor care all that much (attrition from neglect is certainly one reason why other parts of the herp market such as dart frogs and to a lesser extent leopard geckos aren’t saturated), and can’t be used as feeders after they have any age to them like mourning geckos can.

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Unpopular advice, but advice I still give every time I see this type of post - You do not have to breed an animal just because it is there.

Entirely too much of this hobby runs on the MLM pyramid scheme mindset that you HAVE to breed to be a “real” keeper and this just encourages people to breed without putting real thought into it. Far too often I see people breeding “just because” rather than putting actual thought into what they are doing/working toward and what the repercussions will look like

My strong recommendation to you would be to become significantly more versed in genetics - what your morphs are, how they are inherited, what combos you could make, and how to properly identify them. After that, think about how you are going to to care for all of the babies you produce, how you will house them, how you will feed them, and how you will get rid of all the ones that you do not want to keep (and “I will just put them on MM and they will sell no problem” is not the correct answer)

You can make it a career, but not by approaching it with a ‘What is the expensive-morph-of-the-minute’ kind of mentality. There is no one morph that holds value. They all lose value. They all bottom out. AS I said above, the whole of the hobby is built around the MLM pyramid scheme design. There is a reason that the running joke in the community is: “How do you make a million dollars breeding ball pythons? … … … Start with two million dollars”

If you look at the big breeders that have made a career out of this, they have huge facilities with hundreds of breeders that they use to make many many hundreds more animals to sell. Sure, their social media focuses on the glitz and glam things they make to build the hype, but the reality is that it is a lot easier to sell a hundred $200 snakes than it is to sell one $20,000 snake

I am not saying all of this to be a jerk. This is coming from my multiple decades of being in this hobby. I also freely admit that I do breed some of my animals. However, I have answered all the questions I posted above for myself and I know my limits and my boundaries

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going slow and taking your time. Learn your animals. Become a ‘student of the serpent’. After that, then think about whether or not you want to breed

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It sounds like the OP is very green and needs to do lots of research before even acquiring a reptile. The OP at least needs to be well educated on the husbandry. YouTube is an excellent resource for such research, just make sure you stick with the reputable folks that have been in the hobby for a long time and not some of these TikTok yahoos. While doing husbandry research, you’ll naturally stumble upon information about the genetics. Digest some of that research and anything you don’t understand ask the fine folks on this board.

I will say this. Very few people make a profit in their reptile hobby/business. At most they are lucky to break even. Hobbies by definition lose money, but that’s ok because we get enjoyment out of them. Successful businesses make money, but they may not be as enjoyable as a hobby. So if you’re getting into the hobby to get rich, you can stop right there. If you’re getting into the hobby for the enjoyment, go for it, along the way you might recoup some of the money you sunk into it.

New traits and combos quickly lose value. It’s simple economics. When the first Banana’s were made, they sold for tens of thousands of dollars. As the years went by, more and more people were producing them. The price naturally dropped to under $100. No new trait or combo is going to hold its value over the long run. You buy a pair of hatchling Sunsets for $2000 today. By the time the female is grown up and ready to breed three years later, a Sunset hatchling pair will be going for $500 or lower. Supply and demand, basic economics.

You need to pick a reptile breeding project that really speaks to you, not necessarily one that’ll make you rich. Some people like the dark Ball Python combos, some like the light ones, some like the Lightning Pieds, some like BELs, some like Sunsets. For me, I love the Dreamsicle combos. Whatever the project, it needs to be something you’re passionate about. If you’re not passionate about the project, you’ll quickly lose interest and drop out of the hobby. It can take years to finally produce that dream combo. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. If there’s no passion, you won’t last.

Many of the Ball Python traits look most vibrant in hatchlings. As they age, they appear more dull. We call that browning out. But there are some traits that when added into certain combos, they enhance the vibrancy (wow, that’s actually a word) and the adults actually retain much of the hatchling vibrancy.

And yes, the market is still super saturated. So be prepared to possibly hold onto the hatchlings for many months until you can unload them, probably for less than you spent feeding and heating them over those months.

All of this sounds very pessimistic, but it’s reality. Don’t get into the hobby trying to get rich; at best you’ll break even. In the end, you really just want to get enjoyment out of the hobby. But it all starts with doing lots of research BEFORE you get any animals (I know that can be difficult for some people).

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Honestly, if that’s what you’re looking for, you might want to look into species other than ball pythons. I don’t know that any ball python morph or combo is going to retain its value for very long. I’ve only been paying any attention to snake breeding for maybe the last 5 years, and just in that time I’ve seen what were initially rather pricey combos ($2k+) plummet in value, often in the span of just a year or two. There are so many people breeding balls and chasing these combos that they just don’t seem to retain value for very long.

My best advice would be to focus less on chasing high-value genes and just focus on what you actually like. Trying to focus only on valuable genes and combos just seems like it will set you up to be constantly chasing your own tail, because what is and is not valuable (in terms of dollar amount) changes so quickly.

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Absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly. But, that’s why I asked for advice on where to begin to learn every single thing possible about the genes of these animals, and how they are combined to produce specific or probabilistic outcomes.

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I would love to pursue creating my very own morph. I’m sure every breeder does. But the wall I am running into is that I have no idea where best to begin to acquire a comprehensive knowledge of how these animals are mixed to “morph” into a certain look. I want to make the brightest colors possible. I really like the bright orange morphs. Although I have been told these colors fade substantially.

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So morph is basically another way to refer to a ‘gene’, which is a genetic mutation.

Morph combos are what I think you’re referring to… Which is going to again… Probably cost a pretty good sum of money if you wanted a world’s first. There’s really not many people that I know keeping track of it unless they are dropping the money on a new gene to outcross with others or they’re a large breeder working with a very large number of animals to make new combos.
There is a lot of breeders that are keeping these animals as holdbacks as well, so while you may look at the sales and not seeing any … There’s a good chance it’s already been produced. I could technically say I produced the world’s first Coral Glow Orange Ghost mojave pastel vanilla het Desert Ghost. But what does that mean? It’s still a 400$ snake

Actually founding a new gene/mutation is a lot of time and incredible luck for many. I have a potentially ‘new’ gene, but looking at it further it may just be another line of an existing one…or like many projects it could also end up as just a polymorphic trait that can not be reliably reproduced. It can take years to get that trait to be consistent and it would need a lot of line breeding or extremely selective breeding to do it.

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There is no “one place” to learn it all. It is more a matter of taking in everything from a lot of places, culling the wheat from the chaff, and then putting it together as a coherent whole

If you want to learn about genetics, honestly the best thing for that is to take classes and not just rely on what the collective hobby tells you (there is so much misinformation and misunderstanding in the hobby). I will say that RGI does a decent job with their podcast, but even then it is just touching the surface

The best spot for learning morph names and appearances in probably Morphpedia. There is also a massive thread here discussing allelic complexes and which genes are (or might be) related to one another

Playing with the breeding tool on the Market is a simple way to get an idea of what pairings will produce. But if you are still green to how each morph contributes to/interacts with other morphs in a combo then visualizing the offspring could be difficult. And you cannot rely on a quick image search to clarify because it grabs too many unrelated things (I just checked this by running the simple combo of BlkPastel OD Redstripe and there is not even one correct picture but there are a whole lot of things that are not that combo)

@halfmoonlakeherps really nailed it with this:

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Thanks for your help. I feel like I am learning much so far simply by reading over these forums and searching the details of all of the listings on MM.

I have a question if you don’t mind.

I see a snake listed as Orange Dream Enchi Het Albino

It is said to be the pairing of a Black pastel, GHI, OD, Asphalt with an Enchi Albino

But is detailed as being Enchi OD Het Albino only

Shouldn’t the offspring at least be described as Orange Dream Enchi, Het Albino, Het Black Pastel, Het GHI, Het Asphalt?

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Oh boy, here we go. Black Pastel, GHI, Orange Dream, Asphalt and Enchi are incomplete dominant traits. The sire and dam are not the Super forms of those traits, so they only have one copy of the trail. Albino is a recessive trait, so the parent with that trait will pass one copy of that trait to all its offspring. All the offspring will be at least Het Albino. It’s a 50/50 shot for each offspring to get each of those 5 incomplete dominant traits.

Watch some ball python YouTube videos about genetics explaining the difference between incomplete dominant and recessive. Videos can sometimes explain it better than text alone because they can use props and Punnett squares.

I’ll try and dig up some links to YouTube videos that explain it well and post it here.

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RGI posted this video last night. I haven’t watched it myself since it’s not something I need atm, but the title/thumbnail seem like it fits this situation.
Or at the least they do have some gene spotlights that break things down in previous videos as well.

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Thank you. I promise you, just moment ago, I thought I had an ureka moment. I saw that Kinova had an affordable Enchi Spotnose Double Het DG Clown, and then I saw that he sells snakes with those genres for many times as much. So I got the bright idea to buy a DG Clown and put them together. A voila, right? I guess night. The offspring will have any combination of those traits and very few if any will have them all. Is that what you are saying?

I need to look up dominant and recessive. Are certain genes understood to always be dominant and others recessive?

One last thing, does it matter the order in which the traits are listed in the description of an animal. For instance, does a DG Enchi pied mean something different than a pied Enchi DG?

Thanks again for your help!

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Thank you! I will watch it immediately.

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So this is a calculation of the offspring odds. They aren’t always exact but they give a decent starting point. Coral Glow/Banana is a little tricky. Or newly added genes that haven’t been fully explored for inheritance can be wrong
https://www.morphmarket.com/c/reptiles/pythons/ball-pythons/genetic-calculator/?region=all&category=2&s1=Enchi%2CSpotnose%2CHet+Desert+Ghost%2CHet+Clown&s2=Desert+Ghost%2CClown

In theory… You have a 1 in 16 egg odd of the all gene offspring. But actual odds are always more difficult to predict.

As far as the order of how the genes is listed usually doesn’t matter that much. Usually the only order that matters is the recessive hets are listed at the end.
And if there are possible hets they are listed after the guaranteed ones.
I’ve seen Recessive genes listed mostly at the end before recessive hets, but sometimes for attention they are listed first.

For example:
Pastel Albino het Clown 50% het Pied.

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This guy is on MM listing an entire 9 snake clutch as having inherited all 7 of these genes from a crossing where one parent had all of these genes plus one het, and the other had two genes.

Barnhart Black Pastel Banana female maker Leopard Yellow Belly Clown het Dga x Yellow Belly Clown

It should be nearly impossible for more than two snakes from a clutch to have like 5 or 6 50/50 dice rolls come up positive every time. Let alone all 9, right?

So, he has to be lying, right? They all look similar.

Also, I’m wanting to ask your help in making sure I understand correctly that breeders cross snakes and automatically list the traits both parents carry, and then eyeball the offspring and determine if they see each of the possible het traits. Is that right?