I really like something like Super Cinnamons and Super Black Pastel but is the risk of deformity worth it? I know you basically bring the risk of deformity with every breeding for reasons known and unknown . I’ve seen that these are possible line problems and people have had no problem producing either of these? Along with the Spider Complex having known neurological “problems” but also seeing so many acting “normal”. Do you personally take the chance or how do you reduce the chance? I’m still hesitant to mess with Spiders but recently when going to someone’s house and them showing me thier adult Spider, it is one of the best looking snakes I’ve seen in person. I think part of it is the forbidden part about them but she was almost intimidating with her markings. What do you do , avoid all together? Extremely selective? Or just have at it?
I think it really depends on what sort of projects you’re wanting to work with. I personally am going to avoid super cinnamon and super black pastel, and instead work towards a cinnamon suma (super mahogany)… as for spiders, I have several individuals in my collection with the gene that I plan to breed, but they’re not a specific part of the projects.
I just don’t see the issue with them and based on my research and interactions with them, don’t think the wobble is really an issue.
Good husbandry/less stress = happy snake with little to no wobble. Only time mine have had any real wobble show is when they’re being fed or when they’re freaked out.
I am really interested in super cinnamons, from the research I’ve done the issues seem to be more related to certain lines than the inherent in the gene (If I’m wrong I would certainly love to know) so I feel that the risk can likely be managed through breeding selection and practices.
EDIT: Spoiler alert; I’m wrong!
With spiders there doesn’t appear to be any way to control the odds of whether a hatchling will have a wobble, or how severe it will be. While it doesn’t seem to affect function or quality of life for most, there are enough that are seriously affected that it feels like breeding for that gene is too much of a risk for me personally. Partly because my personal philosophy when breeding anything is if I produce an animal with a deformity or disability I need to be prepared and willing to care for that animal for life and my resources are fairly limited. If I can find a knowledgeable pet-only home, that’s great but it’s not something I will count on.
Super cinnamon and super black pastel always have a chance of duckbills and severe kinking. That is why there isn’t many on the market, because many of the babies die. Honestly even if some people try to say only certain lines have it (likely breeders that just want to justify breeding them for profit) it still isn’t worth the risk of getting babies that are likely not going to thrive or even live long and have to be euthanized.
I don’t know of any snakes with wobble that are severely affected by it so long as they are actually kept properly and without stress/lower temperatures (max of 88°F). I have only seen a handful of videos showing a bad wobble, and chances are those animals were extremely stressed just to produce said outcome for shock value and views. Thousands of wobble morphs thrive without issues, and are easy to keep from having issues so long as you are a good keeper. Given there are hundreds of wobble morphs on the market, the babies/adults clearly survive just fine. Unlike super cinny/super black pastels. If you want a dark snake with no risk at all, just get a super mahogany.
I am still also interested in producing some. But finding different lines of cinnamon or any line can be difficult. Might just come down to chooseing what you want to work with. Hoping to find people who’ve had more success or even less success. Interested in odds and outcomes of clutches. They definitely would be hard clutches to watch but rewarding. It seems like dirty work, maybe even other combos could change the odds.
If it’s the look of the super cinnamon or super black pastel you like I feel like the best thing to do to get a similar looking snake without the kinking, duck billing, shark-jaw or cleft palate that’s very common with those animals is to go for a super mahogany and add other dark genes like a single layer of black pastel or cinnamon and other genes like blackhead or chocolate.
Definitely. Mahogany was the first project I bought into.
I went back last night to see if I could support my own claim and this time I found a lot more that seems to indicate the issues with super pastels/super cinnamons are morph linked and more common than I’d previously thought. I assume I’ve gotten better at finding the information since then, the search engines presented me with different results and/or my own biases and faults in what I process. Thank you for prompting me to look into it further and I apologize for stating something I can’t back up.
I’m also about to try and dive down a rabbit hole of research papers to see if I can find somewhere that can provide some structured data on morph defects.