Room Heat vs UTH

It hasn’t affected my utilities much if any. Something else to consider when you heat each rack, every one you add will increase the energy load and also create another potential risk of fire. When you heat with ambient, you can add as many racks as space allows without adding energy cost and fire risk. The new mini split heat pumps are extremely efficient and minimal cost.

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This has been my experience as well.

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I like the idea of keeping the room at a set ambient temp without any further heat. I’l be having a room dedicated to reptiles in my house this year and the room has a split system airco, so I can heat the room with it.
But without the hotspots, how do the snakes thermal regulate themselfs? They can’t choose a hot or cool side this way. Isn’t that potentially harmfull for them?

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Aw, jeez - if I didn’t know better, I’d think you were channeling me. I’m kinda a child of the most awesome Bernd Heinrich -THE guru of insect thermoregulation! The idea of constant temps goes against everything we know about ectotherms. BUT who’s to say the Goldilocks zone is wrong?

I’m looking to breed L. leonis - and open to ambient temps for subadults who reportedly flourish under those conditions. If it ain’t broke…

Does it though? The ideology that in nature they always have a choice seems flawed to me. In a lot of environments, snakes never have access to the range of gradients the hobby is positive they must have. On Dav Kaufman’s trip to Africa for example he temp gunned a Ball Python that was hiding in a termite mound or some sort of burrow; at 98*. So while it had a choice to escape the triple digit heat, it still had no access to the range of temps that the hobby believes they need.

Take where I live as another example, most of the summer, it’s 105-115. Cools to 100 at night. Even in rodent burrows the temp is going to be mid 90s at best. Sure it represents enough of a gradient to provide a choice, but by the lights of modern herpetoculture, colubrids shouldn’t be exposed to those temperatures at all lol. Some snakes in some habitats will have more of a gradient to choose from, ie granite canyons in riparian habitats, but the area I find the most Cal Kings and Gophers in, they definitely don’t have access to the range of gradient that the hobby assumes all snakes have.

I run my ball python room at 84* with a night drop to 81*. They behave exactly the same as all my friends ball pythons do run at 90* hotspots.

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You can find herps out in nature in all temps. I found a garter last night at maybe 50? It’s not like you wanna herpeculture them at that level. I’m interested in Nathan’s question. Are constant temps really ok?

Me, i keep the room at a constant for the low side, as well as having it cool down about 7 degrees for night time. I then have radient panels on one side that heat that side to the hot temp, they choose where in it they want to be to allow thermal regulation. Keeping a constant temp probably isnt going to cause immediate harm, but it messes up the day night cycle, and thermo regulating just cant happen with a constant temp. I would wonder if studies have been done to show the effects if any this has, but for me, im not taking the chance

What does this have to do with constant temps and thermoregulation?

My point was, in many habits, herps do not have access to a sufficient gradient that would allow thermoregulation in the manner you’re speaking of. Effectively, snakes in some areas I herp, live 2-3 months without having access to a ‘cool’ spot. One could go so far as to say it’s not any different than being kept at a constant temperature. Especially considering that the ambient temp even at night is well above what know to be their preferred temps.

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This post has been an interesting topic. Has made me reconsider how I am currently keeping my ball pythons. Going to seek out some more info on the topic and keep a watch on this post. Would make a big difference if I could just run ambient temps with no heat tape or hot spot.

I don’t see how it could unless they have no way to perceive any light in their enclosures at any time. Circadian rhythm in things that have eyesight is generally dictated by the amount/spectrum of light their eyes pick up.

I personally have windowed racks, but many breeders do not. Would make it very difficult for the snakes to perceive night and day. It also depends on if your animals are in a room with a window. Some facilities are bigger, and unless they have the building lights on a timer for day night, that wouldnt work either. I wont claim the amount of breeders this applies to, but i can say it isnt a small amount, and it certainly isnt affecting a small amount of snakes.

Now for somebody not breeding and having a tank exposed to daylight for a visual day night cycle, sure, it probably wouldnt have as much of an effect.

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You mean they dont have access to shade? I could be wrong, but the only places that wouldnt have shade would be deserts, and im pretty sure desert snakes burrow to thermoregulate.

Edit: with that said, if you have a good amount of substrate, im sure your animal could burrow in its enclosure to thermoregulate, and have found with my bioactive enclosures, most do. My carpets however havent burrowed, but they do dig a “nest” they lay in when cooling off that lets them be surrounded by soil, as well as soaking in water.

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I have leaned more since posting that.
The evaporation of the water in the water bowls creates a cooling effect. So in a heated room (or not) the snake can thermoregulate by bowl hugging. Well, I knew evaporation cooled but didn’t connect it to this topic until now.

However… On the main point. for ball pythons in the temperate temperature UK or USA equivalent, it would be expensive to heat my whole snake room to tropical Africa temperatures.

Even the little crack around the edge of a dark tub is going to let in enough light to reflect a light cycle. Not all rack tubs are dark though. I only use opaque tubs for any rack application but unless you went to pains to block out all light 99% of racks are going to let some light in. If temperature were the only way they could manage their circadian rhythm, they would be in big trouble in a lot of climates where temperatures are more constant. Equatorial snakes are a good example because some go large portions of the year with little to no change in temperature.

As far shade goes, being in the shade when it’s 115, it’s still 115. Where I live it is not a desert as such but it’s just as hot as one through the summer. Rodent burrows are generally a few feet deep. Rat and mouse burrows typically much less. 3-4-5’ of dirt is not enough to insulate a burrow against serious heat. Subsurface temperatures don’t stabilize until 10’ or so. The Sacramento Valley where I do much of my herping was in the past a riverbed. Nothing is digging down too deep here since there is so much river rock beneath the surface.

The problem I see with herpetoculture today is the idea that what we do in our snake rooms is what’s happening in all snakes environment, is certaibly best for them, and is all settled science. That’s not necessarily true. Many snakes are in environments that go long periods of time living well outside the environmental parameters we believe they must have. I encourage everyone to go outside and study them in their own habitat, even if what’s local to you aren’t species you keep, you’ll learn something. They’re often found doing things we wouldn’t think they’d do, at times we think they shouldn’t be doing it.

I’m not saying that thermoregulation isn’t necessary, but the ideology that they must always have access to certain gradients, isn’t hard fact either. Our minds like to deal in parameters and certainties and then apply them universally to what we’re doing. I just don’t feel like we truly know enough to hold those lines and say people are wrong for being on the other side of them from you.

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This is just not true, breaking contact with the sun generally lowers temps by 5-10 degrees, as well as removing the basking effect of absorbing the suns heat onto the scales. Anywhere there is shade there can be some amount of thermoregulation. Ive deployed to the middle east 3 times with temps between 120-130 during the summer, and trust me, shade helps! Now in more humid areas, im sure it helps less, but even when i went down to florida, the difference between in the sun and in the shade was massive. While there is usually a difference in air temp, the real difference is the lack of sun. Think wearing a black shirt in the sun, where it absorbs all the heat, but in the shade it does not.

I am unfamiliar with how deep snakes burrow but there are multitudes of species that burrow not only to escape the heat, but to also rely on geothermal temps to get them through the winter. I also know if i let my probes touch the soil in my enclosures, the temp drops about 5 degrees, and thats just touching the surface.

As for animals in their natural habitat, in nature, ball pythons do burrow, so it is natural for them, and the areas in which they live are suited fine for it :slight_smile: but it is a good thing to mention that just because some snakes burrow, doesnt mean they all do, so indeed research the species you are keeping to ensure its applicable :slight_smile:

This is very true. Its been between 80 day and 60 night temps (sometimes hitting low 50s) and Fury made another great escape, he was gone for about 2 months before showing back up (it was 65-45 when he first escaped). I thought for sure he wouldnt have survived those temps, but when i found him (Tyr found him) he seemed none worse for wear. On a side note, he is staying in a slide lid until he is at least double his current size now. Ive had enough of him playing houdini. Every other snake is fine, but every god danged time i try to give him nicer living he abuses the privledge haha.

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I’m not trying to put words in his mouth, but I think the point he was trying to make is that in hot temperatures, there isn’t a way to provide the gradient that we would in captivity. For example, keeping a snake in a terrarium where there’s nowhere cooler than 110*. That would be terrible to keep a snake like that, but it happens in the wild and they do just fine. There might still be a gradient in the wild, but it might only be 110*/115*, which doesn’t provide the cool area that we provide in captivity.

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I can understand that, but that doesnt translate well to tubs. What you could do for something like that is have ambient room temp at low end of temp scale, then have a basking bulb. To simulate basking in the sun. It still gives a good ability to thermoregulate without needing a direct gradient.

I think his main point is that just because alot od people consider a temperature gradient to be an essential part of their ecology, doesnt mean it is a requirement for them to survive or be healthy, and that animals have adapted to worse conditions than a monotonous temerature within their normal temp range.

To that point i agree, i think they would survive just fine, i just think there would be some level of stress if they have no way to regulate, but even a water bowl big enough to soak would work for thermoregulation even if the air temp was static. There are ways to allow them to thermoregulate even with a static ambient temp was my main point. Soil like substrate with a bark hide so they can burrow a bit, a good sized water dish, a rock, there are just so many options you could add to make an ambient room temp work as a heat that would also let them thermo regulate. As he stated, just look at how they do it in nature when nobody has any control over the temp. It can definitely be done, but i feel it would be better with one of the above options to allow them some way to regulate their own temp, even if the air temp is constant (mine burrow under the water dishes like champions haha)

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The best response I’ve read here so far.

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Agreed. Snakes are adaptable and can survive in many sub optimal conditions. even reproduce without males.
But I ask - is basic survival the best and healthiest outcome? (i can survive for many years with sub optimal nutrition and even smoking but does that create the best outcomes?)
Even in nature evaporation creating cooling in areas or depth doing the same can change the temperature and/or humidity of the environment, and snakes have been known to use both.
Yes, snakes are survivors, but they use many mechanisms to do so besides a basic thermal gradient.
Just sitting under some damp leaves will cool, so will depth.
Think of temperate snakes that survive frost that would kill them by hibernating deeper where temperatures are warmer, or the UK adder that lays eggs in dung pies to get the extra heat needed for incubation success.

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Yes, this is what my own point was haha. Even if you use ambient room temp, there are things you can add to allow for proper thermoregulation, so why not use them, even if not strictly necessary for survival. Soaking sized water bowls, rocks to use as heat sinks, some moist soil to burrow or nest in. These are easy enough things to add that would still help with thermoregulation even if you did not have a temperature gradient, and are ways the animals would handle the lack there of in the wild.

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