Room Heat vs UTH

Pythons Ball Pythons
41

What science that has explored both sides of this argument are you basing your ideas on?

It seems the default answer in snake husbandry debates is to say that “snakes are adapted to be very resilient and just because they live a long time and perform all the same behaviors it doesn’t mean they’re healthy” When people explain they’ve been keeping something successfully for 10-15-20 years, the go to response is, just because they’re alive doesn’t mean they’re healthy. I would ask you prove that argument. Show me how it’s unhealthy with some peer reviewed science. You’ll have a hard time, because we’re all still operating on the limited amount of scientific research that does get done on reptiles.

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42

I will put it this way. We are endothermic. If our body is off in temperature, it self corrects. Now, what happens when our temperature is off by 5 degrees (too hot or too cold). The answer is rather significant. A fever of 103.6 is on the border just before organ failure, and on the other spectrum our metabolism slows down significantly, we become lethargic, and our immune system becomes shot.

Que an exothermic. Because they need external sources for heat and cold, they are rather resilient when it comes to core temps being off, but not completely immune. We know what a good basking temp is, and we know at what temps they thrive given a gradient. But who has figured out the exact temperature their core should be for optimal performance? Because if you are going to go for a static temp, this should be your target, and it changes by the species.

So sure, you can listen to the anecdotals (ive done it for years), but people keep goldfish in glass bowls for years too, and we (should) all know that is atrocious for their health (stunts organ development and significantly shortens their lifespan).

I dont accept “you dont know its wrong for sure, so it could work” as an answer. It is a non answer. Sure, absolutely, it could be possible there is nothing wrong with it, but when we have decades of trial and error to show how to do it properly with a temperature gradient, why are so many wanting to storm the unkown beaches without? Why not wait until such research that says it is safe or not exists, and not just for people who say it definitely works. Why take that risk when its so easy to just add means of thermoregulation? A rock. Literally all you need is a rock, or soil, or a water bowl big enough to soak. They are such simple things that we know work, and the science is there to back it up.

So do i have any direct science to show that not allowing a snake to thermoregulate is bad for it? Besides temp changes to indicate seasons for breeding purposes for some species, no. But there is plenty to say it is beneficial, so why go the route without science?

Now, if you were a scientist performing testing, then by all means dont let me stop you, as it could be very beneficial to the community and help open some of the barriers of entry to the hobby, but i dont think most breeders and hobbyists are that person to be doing the research.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C7&q=temperature+gradient+needed+for+snake&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1656601200427&u=%23p%3D_YVyt8jQWsAJ

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43

As a quick sidenote, I am far from a subject matter expert, so i am not trying to come off as condescending or standoffish, this has been a good discussion so far as im concerned, I am not trying to insult you or those who feel the same, i am only confused why to go that route instead

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I recorded temps of my animals for several years and found the optimal temp for most species I work with to be 84°. That’s the sole reason I run my building at 84 ambient.
Species I work with a breed readily with zero change in several years.
Ball pythons
Blood pythons
Macklots Pythons
GTP
Carpet Pythons
Kingsnakes
Rosy boas
KSB
Redfoot tortoises
Star tortoises
And many many more I kept in the past the same way. Do what works for you and your animals.

As far as if it could work…it does work. If the animals aren’t healthy and thriving they are not going to easily reproduce…and usually have no interest in feeding. The reason most of us that have done this for 30 years say that, is because we’ve done everything that has been touted as “the new way” when we were all first starting out. Then over the years you learn to read what the animals prefer and you change to benefit them. It isn’t about ego, it’s about having tried every method under the sun and letting the animals decide by way of behavior.

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45

Fair enough, i just dont want reptile care to go back to keeping crocadiliads in shoeboxes. So i stick to recommending things that are natural or researched. Doesnt mean other methods dont work, just that i dont recommend them.

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46

Nothing wrong with that. I do recommend ambient to those that can achieve it. My animals do much better in an ambient setting. There are so many ways to be successful with ball pythons, I always recommend people do what works best for them and their animals. What works for some might not work for others. Just do what works for you and you’re golden.

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47

Fair, though the only caveat i would add is do what works for you given your level of experience. There have been far too many people who think they know what they are doing who cause more harm than good. Alot of people here i feel have enough experience to tell if they are harming the animal or not, but for somebody who may not recognize warning signs, it is probably best to stick to tried and true before shifting to other methods :slight_smile:

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48

WARNING: The single temp is a nightmare when dealing with temp stressed animals with food that still needs to be digested. They need cooler temps to mellow, yet high temps to digest. I wholeheartedly advise against single temps unless your snakes are all ready established and healthy to start. I’m moving to heat tape and gradients asap.

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Royal Balls on YouTube has done a great video on this posted today.

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I’ve been breeding livestock and exotic animals for a couple decades, we can discuss methods freely (at any volume you prefer :joy:) without me taking offense. Even when I’ve been successful with something for a long period of time, I’m never certain I’ve landed on my permanent methods.

When it comes to the domesticated stuff (in my opinion that’s anything commonly captive bred for 20-30 years in the hobby) I don’t think there is a measurable difference between ambient and traditional health wise.

I personally feel that the temperatures a lot of the hobby relies on are much too hot. Snakes actually aren’t awesome at deciding what’s too hot or too cold to lay on, as VPI demonstrated with the cold and heat rocks have showed many people on the hot side. When you feed a python, it will generally seek the hottest spot in the cage when trying to thermoregulate. It will absolutely burn itself on that spot, if the temperature is that high. I used heat tape for years. If the probe got knocked off, and whole rack was running 115 or more, half of the snakes would be laying on it. Given that behavior, how do you know that in providing a gradient with a high spot, you’re not actually forcing the animal to choose a spot that’s either hotter than is healthy; Or that you aren’t forcing it’s metabolism to work at excessive rate if it’s only choice of a heat source is a 90+ degree hotspot?

In all of the research you base your method of keeping on, how much of their findings are based on observed behavior, metabolic efficiency, and growth curves? Most, if not all of it, I would guess. If you cannot observe a behavioral difference between my animals and yours, a metabolic difference, or a reproductive difference, and their lifespans are similar, how can you be so positive that ambient keeping is dangerous for the animals?

Science has put some time into studying thermoregulation, it has put none into ambient keeping of captive reptiles. We find what we look for in time, but if we’re only looking at one method, we’re only ever going to find the benefit of one method.

Information is always evolving, it’s been my experience that being completely certain can be a dangerous position to hold. Pluto is my favorite example. It’s certainly been different things in my lifetime, and each of those were considered correct, according to the science of the time. If people never challenged the norm, we’d all still be keeping them in old TV sets with incandescent light bulbs.

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51

I keep Ball Pythons, ATBs, 4 species of Kingsnake, Corn Snakes, BCIs, Retics, carpets, hognose, and garters in different rooms with ambient heat, and I have zero digestion problems. Numbers wise there are triple digit ball pythons and around 40 of the misc species.

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52

I will say this is one of the most well constructed arguments I think I’ve heard. It honestly has me rethinking the way we keep animals in the hobby. I honestly will love to listen to you have a podcast episode about this, or just to talk in person/over the phone lol :joy:.

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53

I’m trying to balance snakes that showed every indication of being heat stressed when warmed too quickly to 75 from maybe 30? They acted like it was 95. They had no reprieve other than the single temp I provide. They have to digest but also chill. This is a nightmare.

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Thanks Riley. The longer I do this and the farther down the rabbit hole I get, I’m never sure either lol. I know that what I’ve been doing works just as well as what I used to do, and I have substantially less fire risk. The fact that they’ll injure or kill themselves on a heat source has always disturbed me. If they’re as temperature sensitive as people think, I just can’t understand why they would be so bad at recognizing safe temperatures.

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55

We recently beem having troubles with our electric in our house amd blew our thermostats. So we moved out snakes from the house to the snake shed (we needed to anyways) no heat just insulated heat from summer keeps it very warm inside and we noticed a dramatic change innesting behavior on all our snakes from heat being ambient. Hope this helps

56

It’s been my experience that ball pythons will choose security over tempature nearly everytime, which tends to be the back of the tub, where we tend to put the heat tape. I don’t observe much tempature choosing at all. Exception being building females.

I’ve been doing ambient only at 86 degrees for quite a few years, only been more successful across the board doing so compared to when i heated the racks. Temp and humidity levels were chosen based off data averaging abandoned/dead termite mounds that ball pythons can be found in.

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57

All this really is so incredibly fascinating.

Clearly both methods can work done a certain way, but the hows and whys and which approximates natural circumstances better-

Anybody need a PhD Project? Not even kidding!

My House Snake is currently in a UTH that’s sort of a combination of the two, and he seems to like it. The enclosure is all around an ambient around 77 F without above-ground gradient. Some very snug tube hides he likes are in the middle for him to enjoy that temp, but a seedpod burrow on one end lets him be closer to 73-72 F down in it, and a seedpod burrow on the other side lets him get warmer, and he can burrow down to 89F if he wants.

I’ve seen him moving between one hide and another, when he feels like exploring or presumably feels like being cooler/warmer, but he also spends a lot of time in the tube hides in the ambient temp.

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58

Agreed!

I remember when I was doing research before getting my blood python, I noticed that quite a few short tail keepers and breeders talked about keeping their snakes in ambient room temps in the low 80s. It seems that short tails do very well with ambient room temps, and I’m sure it works well for plenty of other species as well. Unfortunately, using ambient room heat is not really an option for me at the moment, since I don’t have a dedicated reptile room and I couldn’t deal with my bedroom always being 80+F. So I just use UTHs and CHEs (though I’m looking at upgrading to deep heat projectors and/or radiant heat panels soon).

However, if/when I ever do have the option to have a reptile room (which is something of a long-term goal for me), I’d definitely be interested in giving ambient temp a try. I think I’d probably try to have the room temp be around the ideal “cool end” temperature and then use heat tape or heat mats for hot spots for any species that need higher basking temps.

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59

For me, they do like security, but it seems to be secondary. If i have just increased humidity, they go towards the front until things calm down, if they are hot, they move into (or under their water), and if the temps a bit cold, they huddle back under the heat pannel. I keep my snake room between 70-75 degrees (mostly for the health and safety of the ASFs i have in there) so the snakes are very mobile when choosing where they want to be based on the temps and humidity they want.

Not the only way to do things, but they seem to react well.

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60

Oooh I just had another fun thought about this:

I wonder if snakes from more equatorial zones in particular are the ones thriving with more ambient room temps, and if conversely those from places where temps fluctuate more with day/night cycles might do better with an artificial provided gradient…
Or not?

Man if I was a biologist I’d be all over this, it’s really fascinating to speculate about. So much research to do on the topic, since clearly both in the right ways will work but do some species get more benefit from one method or another?

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