Rosy Boa New Mutations Request

[thebreedinglab]

Species: Rosy Boa (Lichanura trivirgata)

Please click the link to my website where the entire project is explained.

The request is for 4 new traits to be added to under “Rosy Boa” category. The zipper mutation, melanistic and blue Anery are 3 brand new mutations that have come out of the project. The albino mutation from this project originated out of a Limburg line coastal albino. Due to these mutations looking so much different and having bred true now for 5 generations, I am requesting these genes be added to the trait list with the tag (Skittles) at the end to be able to keep track of lineage. Just like we do now with the existing Albinos in traits.

Name of Gene/Traits Requested:

• Albino (Skittles)
• Blue Anery (Skittles)
• Melanistic (Skittles)
• Zipper (Skittles)

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Genetics Type :

• Albino (Skittles): Recessive – clean depigmentation with strong orange/cream contrast.
• Blue Anery (Skittles): Recessive – removes red/orange pigment, producing a distinct cool gray/blue tone not typically seen in standard anery Rosy Boas.
• Melanistic (Skittles): Recessive dark-pigment mutation, producing deep black saturation and contrast.
• Zipper (Skittles): Polygenic pattern trait – a distinct “zipper-like” dorsal stripe break that shows consistently across different phases. Has proven to be polygenic

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In complex with other genes?: No

Other names/aliases: These traits are part of what I call the Skittles Project, which is why I’m suggesting each trait be listed with “(Skittles)” for clarity and consistency.

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Description:

• Albino (Skittles): Bright orange dorsal striping on a cream background, typically wider and cleaner than other albino lines.
• Blue Anery (Skittles): Gray/blue body coloration with reduced warm pigment; distinct from traditional anery Rosy Boas.
• Melanistic (Skittles): Heavy black pigmentation;
• .
• Zipper (Skittles): Mid-dorsal broken “zipper-like” stripe, which can appear in Albino, Blue Anery, or Melanistic individuals.

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Problems/Concerns: None observed outside of typical Rosy Boa husbandry.

Evidence & Media:

• Albino (Skittles):

• Blue Anery (Skittles):

• Melanistic (Skittles):

• Zipper (Skittles):

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Why add these traits:

• Allows Rosy Boa keepers/breeders to track base mutations separately, not just under a project name.
• Improves searchability and tagging for buyers on MorphMarket.
• Creates a foundation for documenting combos (ex: Albino + Anery = “Snow,” Albino + Melanistic = “Strawberry Albino,” etc.).
• Helps distinguish Blue Anery (Skittles) from the broader “anery” category, since its phenotype is distinct.

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Thank you for reviewing this request. I’m happy to provide more photos, pairings, and generational data if needed. All information and history on this project can be found on my website

General 5 — The Breeding Lab

— Edward / The Breeding Lab

[thebreedinglab]

Albino (Skittles)

Blue Anery (Skittles)

Melanistic (Skittles)

Zipper (Skittles)

[armiyana]

Not a mod so they’re the final say on it …
But listing it all as (Skittles) sounds like a headache for anyone selling to a new breeder who doesn’t understand genetics the same.

If I’m understanding it correctly, These aren’t new mutations. Just a line that you are working with to create? That’s more of a you problem with marketing and not a MorphMarket one since there aren’t new mutations you’re founding, just a line project?

[thebreedinglab]

Hi armiyana, the skittles project is best explained on the link to my website where I did a deep dive. But long story short. They are a result of crossing two different localities. Through these breedings we have discovered that the “Black” Ortiz locale Rosy Boa is actually a natural occurring recessive mutation. With many generations removed from original stock these animals are completely different than any of the Albino, Anery, Melanistics available on the market as they are a cross between two different locales. The reason for this request is to ensure that “Skittles line” animals are labeled as such. The project has been out for a few years now but now in collaboration with Randy Limburg we have isolated all 4 mutations that make up the project. I have pictures of all combos on my website and happy to provide all that information as well. As a former ball python breeder I understand the importance of not just claiming anything that looks a little different is a new mutation. I also know that there are many mutations and localities that need to be added to the Rosy Boa category that I plan on working on.

[armiyana]

So what it sounds like is that ‘Black’ Ortiz recessive would be renamed Skittles… And then you would have Skittles Albino and such as the ‘project’

The problems with it then just becomes if MM is even allowed to use the name Skittles for a morph.

[thebreedinglab]

Well currently Ortiz is just has one trait. Ortiz. However there are actually two phases of Ortiz. There are Blacks and Yellows. Due to Rosy Boa breeders in the past always keeping locales and even phases together no one has bred a yellow to a black Ortiz. Well turns out the yellow Ortiz would be considered the “normal” phase and the black Ortiz would be a recessive melanistic mutation. Much like black dragons in the wild being a natural occurring recessive mutation. Again the project is best explained on my website. After this I would like Ortiz phases, Lavender albino ajos, red and black bay of LAs, hypo San Matias, and more added to the traits under Rosy Boa category.

[noodlehaus]

According to your website, at least two of these are not new mutations. The Albino and Anery are both the same as Costal, therefore there’s nothing new to add in those cases. The existing traits would be used to identify them.

[armiyana]

The website is adding to my thoughts on this being more of a marketing project for you. As NoodleHaus said, there are existing genes already being bred into this ‘project’. Also, are you going to be transparent about them being locale mixes as well since some of these are actual locality polymorphic traits as well?

Edit: the most similar thing for me to compare this to is like RAPTOr Leopard geckos. A combination of exiting genes and a breeder’s personal linebred trait. It’s a combo not necessary a new gene. That cause more problems as people just started breeding willy nilly to get on the hype train.
If it’s a request to rename the black line to something different, I get that … But the rest of it is better left as just your personal passion project.
I don’t work with these guys, but from reading the page, post here and comparing it to what I do know, It definitely sounds like only one of those genes can be considered

[thebreedinglab]

I understand how that would seem to be the right thing to do however, it is essential for Rosy Boa keepers and breeders to know if there has been localities mixed into the mutation by crossing an albino coastal anything else besides a coastal it would no longer be considered a coastal. Same goes for the Anery mutation. If someone were to cross those back into their albino or anery coastal they would not produce true coastals. Not only do the albino and anerys look completely different They are mixed locales. Many of the so-called albino t+ positive stuff we have with Rosy Boa that are different lines are actually compatible with each other however, we do not just label it all all under T positive because of the different localities. That is why I am requesting that (skittles) be added to differentiate the lineage of these animals. Also the zipper and melanistic mutations. Phenotypically they look completely different than those base mutations that were used five generations ago. Not only that the combinations of these mutations also look completely different. This is not just breeding two different mutations together and trying to call it something else as my own line. This is two different localities, four separate mutations and over five generations of line breeding. By labeling these with the traits that are already listed would simply be false. Although two of the genes may be “compatible“ with other genes. The importance of labeling this as a separate project cannot be overstated and I believe many Rosy Boa keepers and breeders would agree that we need to keep things like this separate from what we have now.

[thebreedinglab]

If you just look at an albino coastal and an albino from the skittles project you can clearly see they are two totally different looking snakes and same goes for the Anery. Not only that once you combine the base mutations and make combos they look nothing like anything else we currently have. I have seen much lesser “mutations” be added for ball pythons. In my opinion this category cannot be looked at the same way as leopard geckos nor ball pythons.

[noodlehaus]

A larger part of the issue here is that you didn’t just cross localities, at least from my understanding, these are two different species. Costals being L. orcutti, and Ortiz being L. trivirgata. There has already been a request to split the category to identify both species, which would then make these hybrids if that change goes through. At that point they’d likely be handled akin to Creamsicle “corn” snakes. In the case of those animals, they get the “Rootbeer” hybrid tag, as well as the Amelanistic corn snake tag. I suspect this would be handled in a similar manner.

I will tag @eaglereptiles as he’s one of the guys in charge of these kinds of additions and would likely be better able to address your request.

[thebreedinglab]

Here’s just a simple example. Here are the same two mutations from skittles project and out of the skittles project. Hopefully this can make it a little more clear as to why we cannot just label them as the same mutations we currently have listed even though half of the skittles project originated with coastal mutations over 10 years ago and 5 generations.

Here’s a Snow (Coastal) Albino X Anery

Here a Snow (Skittles) Albino X Anery

According to what you guys are arguing we as Rosy Boa keepers should label these the same under traits.

[caron]

I totally don’t understand the contents of these posts going back and forth but that Skittles Snow is incredible!

[thebreedinglab]

There is already a precedent for an addition like this: the Picasso rosy boa. The Picasso is also a combination of locality and hybrid mutations, that was added because it was different enough and needed to be recognized as such to avoid confusion. Most know but For those that don’t that originated with Limburg line Albino animals and was crossed into other locales. Also I understand the “hybrid” trait needing to be added and am not opposed to it. I am not saying to change anything to the Picasso just saying that should be considered

[thebreedinglab]

Also I would like to clarify this is not meant to be a “marketing” play. I would just like to be able to sell my rosy boas and be able to clearly label to new keepers that these are different from existing mutations… because they are. The photos speak for themselves. I do not like to post things and do my best to stay away from social media because of things like this. Some people may not fully understand Rosy Boas or take the time to really learn about the project. I want to clarify that I’m not just speaking from opinion I’ve been fortunate to learn directly from one of the most respected Rosy Boa keepers, who literally wrote the handbook on the species and documented many of the localities we recognize today. I understand and appreciate the hesitation around this project, but with all due respect, I don’t feel it’s something that should really be up for debate.

[thebreedinglab]

Just another example of why we can’t label them as the same mutation. Here is an example of how different the Coastal Anery is vs Skittles Anery.

Anery(Coastal)

Anery(Skittles)

[thebreedinglab]

Albino (Coastal)

Albino (Skittles)

[thebreedinglab]

I’ve already got some really exciting combos from this project that I’d love to share, but I don’t feel comfortable posting them until the four base mutations are officially added. If I were to just list them as existing mutations or traits, it would be misleading, because they’re not the same thing anymore. Getting those base mutations in place first is important so everything stays organized, newer keepers can follow along more easily, and the project can be tracked the right way moving forward.

[thebreedinglab]

To try to understand this project in just 30 minutes and dismiss over a decade of work is, frankly, a little disheartening. Rosy Boa taxonomy itself is constantly evolving. California still recognizes both gracia and orcutti even though officially there is “only” orcutti. So clarity is essential here.

I want to emphasize that my goal has never been to mislead anyone. Quite the opposite, I want to prevent these animals from being mislabeled or crossed into pure locality mutations, because they are not. As a Rosy Boa keeper, breeder, and enthusiast, I feel strongly that these should not be mistaken for an albino coastal, an anery coastal, or a black Ortiz. They are no longer those, and it is critical that locality lines remain pure when animals are sold online. What I am working to prevent is unintentional hybridization between species.

I love locality projects, and I also enjoy the creative side of working with mutations. Just like carpet python breeders produce stunning designer carpets, or green tree python keepers explore designer lines, the same can be said for Rosy Boas. That is all this project is: designer Rosy Boas. Within the Skittles project, we have seen albino, anery, melanistic, and a recurring polygenic trait that produces the “zipper face” look. This trait consistently shows up in the recessives and their combinations.

I fully understand the hesitation, but I believe this cannot be compared to ball pythons or leopard geckos. The situation is more complex, closer to what we see with carpet pythons or green tree pythons. I am comfortable using a “hybrid” tag if necessary, but I believe a “Skittles” tag is sufficient, especially considering carpet pythons are hybridized all the time without hybrid labeling.

For those who don’t have the time to read the full article on my website, here is the background. The original stock came from a black Ortiz and an albino coastal. The initial vision was to bring the high black of the Ortiz into a bold striped albino. What we discovered along the way is that black Ortiz is itself a naturally occurring recessive mutation, and the original albino coastal also carried het anery. As the project progressed, the zipper-like animals began appearing, a clear coastal influence, but the bold Ortiz pattern pushes through, creating something distinct.

A great deal of time and effort has gone into ensuring the lineage breeds true and remains well-documented. This has not just been a side project. It has been a decade-long, carefully managed breeding effort with meticulous records, pairings, and observations. Every decision has been intentional, with the long-term goal of both maintaining integrity and exploring what is possible within Rosy Boas.

This is not simply hobbyists throwing animals together and making claims. I want to be very clear this is not a marketing gimmick. If I were to simply label these as existing mutations, it would be misleading, because they are not the same thing anymore. What is emerging is something distinct, and it deserves to be tracked accurately for the sake of transparency and the future of Rosy Boa keeping.

And let me stress this: I am not speaking from a place of guessing. There is no guessing here. I have dozens of examples of each mutation, and they are completely distinct from the animals they originated from. There are many other Rosy Boa mutations and localities still not listed, and I would like to help contribute to adding them. The reality is there are not many true experts in this field, only a handful in my opinion. I was fortunate to be taught by someone many consider the grandfather of Rosy Boas as a whole, and because of that I feel a responsibility to get this information out to the public.

Many of the old-school Rosy Boa experts are not active online. Some do not even know what MorphMarket is. But MorphMarket is where today’s keepers, especially new keepers, are learning. It has become the standard. We are no longer in the Kingsnake classifieds era, and the responsibility now falls on us to make sure the information being presented is accurate, transparent, and up to date.

To give just a few examples, there are actually two distinct phases of Ortiz, a yellow phase (the “normal”) and a black phase, which is technically a recessive mutation. I cannot simply call this a “black Ortiz,” because it is not. It looks completely different. The gene derived from Ortiz, but it has since proven itself to be something new. The same applies to other mutations like the polygenic red Bay of LA, the melanistic Bay of LA (a recessive), hypo, San Matias, the lavender albino Ajo, and several more localities that have yet to be listed, such as the Santa Ana Mountains locality. These are obvious, distinct, and need to be clearly represented.

I actually held off pushing for recognition last year after writing the article, because an overseas customer recognized the rarity and value of the project and purchased everything available. But this year, I want more of these animals to remain here in the U.S. so that other keepers can participate. My hope is that by sharing these animals more widely, other serious keepers can contribute to the project and help establish it responsibly in the hobby. The more hands involved, the stronger the foundation becomes for future generations to enjoy and build upon.

There is still so much to uncover, and this project is bigger than what I can accomplish in a single lifetime.

[armiyana]

I don’t have any say in the actual application process so you don’t have to sell it to me to have it listed here. If the mods for the Morphipedia okay it, cool.

These are just my opinions on an open forum for discussion. These are just reasons for me as a rosy boa n00b to simplify a generally broad request that honestly seems a bit silly. Because you can’t claim to have created the albino and anery that already existed in rosy boas. Sure, you hybridized them, but they are not new and incompatible lines of those genes.
I would be one of the people looking at the genes and trying to figure them out of I bought them. You make it more confusing

Here’s the thing…you say that it can’t be compared to leopard geckos. But your designer rosy boas are not much different from a designer line of leopard geckos. You can call them your “Skittles project by The Breeding Lab” and people will specifically go to you for it. Once it’s out of your hands what is it? An outcross of a line bred project. It falls apart. People will say it’s a ‘skittles project line’ but what happens when no one else has the same linebred traits? That’s where I am looking at this request. It’s not different from what happens with other linebred traits and I don’t believe that it should be treated as something other than what it is. Your personal breeding project. There’s no shame in having a dedicated project. I’m not diminishing the work that has gone into pushing for a beautiful looking group of animals. But trying to push for everything involved to be relabeled as ‘you’ feels like an overreach.

-You are hybridizing and line breeding for a bold and distinct zippered look. That is something you can easily request as a line bred trait addition.

-You can request the recategorizing of the black Ortiz as a recessive and not a locality.

-I don’t believe you should be able to categorize a combo in a linebred project as a new gene. This is no different than saying something like ‘Sunglow’ in leopard geckos. It’s is still a tremper albino super hypo tangerine, not an entirely new thing. An existing albino recessive and a line bred trait with a cool sounding name. Just because you’re breeding a bold pattern into a leopard gecko and calling it bandit, that doesn’t make tremper albino an albino (bandit)

I don’t know how else to explain why this request seems like an overreach. And that’s the last I’m going to chime in on this since it will go on in circles anyway.
Good luck with the project regardless. They are a pretty line of noodles