True that…I’ve heard some people use the wrong type of lotion and then place the animal under their heat lamp and basically cook/burn the beardie.
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Totally agree with you but it’s not just in the reptile community. It can be any animal. Dogs are a good example. Might be more common for reptiles because they don’t show pain or discomfort like other animals do. Any animal that will make someone money will always be abused unfortunately.
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Some will say ‘Oh they are healthy its just that they shed alot compared to other beardies’
Well shedding isn’t fun for any lizard so imagine how bad it is for these guys that seem to constantly be shedfing…I’m sure its itchy or very uncomfortable. So if the animal has to suffer thru alot more shedding than others I feel that alone is detrimental to the poor animals way of life.
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Adult wild scaleless animals of numerous species have been found in the wild. So it is no more detrimental than any other genetic mutation in that regard.
People will like what they like and keep what they keep and breed what they breed. You have no more right to damn them for their choices than they have to damn you for yours. There is too much divisiveness in the herp community as it is, why do we need to find more reasons to fight amongst ourselves? No one is forcing you to keep Silkies, so just enjoy what you want to keep.
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Just a thought in regards to this comment. I actually think it’s really important for our community to hold itself accountable in regards on what should be bred and kept. I don’t have enough knowledge on silkies to make an educated decision on them specifically, but bring critical of certain morphs with defects that potentially affect quality of life shouldn’t be looked at as divisive. Doing such is putting the wellbeing and health of animal in question first, which is what anyone in this community should be most concerned about.
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Counterpoint here
As determined by whom exactly? The PetTuber with an agenda and his extensive fanbase? Or actual biologists and geneticist? Or pet enthusiasts in general?
97% of the time, the person advocating against a given morph is doing so based on their own personal biases, not on anything that is actually a proven fact.
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If I can invest the time and extra attention needed to fully care for a Silkie so that its health and well being is being perfectly met then I should be able to keep the morph. But because the OP thinks Silkies are trash and defective, he says they should all be exiled from the hobby and no one should keep or breed them
Who is in the right here?
Which goes right back to my above:
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I will revisit my post in a different thread about the slippery-slope we tread when we begin to talk about what should and should not be allowed in the hobby
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Bottom line is that at the end of the day, we are keeping animals in a box. We should be encouraging people to provide the best care they can give to whatever it is they want to keep, but we should never be telling them that they cannot keep something they are able to care for simply because we ourselves do not like that thing. When we start doing that, we are no better than the AR activists that are saying we should not be allowed to keep reptiles because they are not cute and fuzzy like puppies and kitties
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Good points…Good to see everyone here can have a controversial discussion without killing each other Lol.
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This is what I love about our community also
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I think determining whether or not a morph or trait is negatively affecting an animal to the point where quality of life is of concern can only be determined by a veterinarian or related field of expertise. Anyone claiming to know for sure otherwise is a little in over their head, whether it be breeder or some other person. We need actual scientific studies, but there is little interest for studies of these topics because it is very niche. I am of the opinion such morphs or traits (not even specifically talking about silkies here, but it is for sure one that should be studied) should not be bred until a conclusion can be made by a qualified person.
Personally, I just abstain from ownership of any questionable morphs/traits and await if anything credible can prove otherwise. Even if that means nothing is ever proven, then I just never own that morph. This is coming from someone who really wants a scaleless BP; I love how they look but I am just too unsure of their overall ethical standing.
Ah, the controversial Silkback dragon convo.
Silks are made by breeding two incomplete dominant leatherback animals. It’s the homozygous form of the mutation.
They actually don’t require that much additional care. People overcare quite a bit. You don’t need to have sherpa blankets as a “substrate” or remove anything with corners out of the enclosure. You shouldn’t be lathering them up with lotion, it can actually cause more harm/shedding difficulty than good. It can even cause bacterial infections. Toes and tails should be paid special attention to durring shedding. Vegetable glycerin is good to use to assist with shedding difficulty.
They do dehydrate faster than normal dragons.
They absolutely should not be bred. Not even the males. The scales of the female can tear up their undersides.
They should not be produced as the sole reason of a pairing.
Out of 16000 eggs we produced last season, we produced a couple silkback animals. We go out of our way to not produce them. Sometimes we need certain line crosses to continue with a project, and the two perfect animals happen to be leather. When we do, we give them away for free to certain people we know understand the Husbandry parameters of the morph.
They aren’t as forgiving Husbandry wise as regular scale or leatherback animals. That’s the problem with them. A lapse in Husbandry that a regular bearded would be “ok” with, will kill a silk.
They are pets. Well bred and taken care of silks have a comparable life span to the average dragon.
Anyways, that’s my two cents.
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I think any well informed breeder or keeper for that matter who keeps these animals should be able to give an honest assessment if the gene affects quality of life. Don’t think you need studies for that.
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Do people ever breed two silkbacks together? I’m not a bearded dragon person, so this thread has been very educational for me.
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An admirable stance. Now… Can you please point to any controversial morph in the hobby where the person advocating against that morph fits those criteria?? 
As I noted above, pretty much universally it is person with a personal bias against the morph in question that is calling for their elimination from the hobby, while berating anyone that wants to keep that morph, and not someone that can point to anything that is actually a proven fact.
And that is why I say that people should just keep what they like and let others do the same.
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I mean that’s the answer to the issue that you are rightfully pointing out. Yes pretty much everyone who is advocating against or for the bad or “good” ethics of controversial morphs doesn’t really have the credentials to make a conclusion. A well-conducted study on such would bring the needed information to light, but is unlikely to happen.
I would disagree at least on this topic on controversial morphs. Yes I would trust most any breeder with a good reputation that this normal beardie, or albino bp, or motley corn snake (or whatever non-controversial morph) to be healthy. I think there is too much bias (for at least me personally, everyone has a different viewpoint) to trust any one person’s opinion on controversial morphs. A breeder is just that, a breeder. Not a veterinarian or a relevant scientist, unless they have also undergone that career path.
These are just my own thoughts. I think our hobby needs more science to make ethical and safe decisions around the animals we keep.
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I’m not sure if its been done but the poor female would most likely get hurt and get an infection. I also assume the clutch would have a lot of babies that would not make it…But I don’t know much about breeding so who knows.
For an interesting perspective, consider evolution. Variants pop up naturally, and as evolution permits, only the strong survive.
You may wonder why an albino animal exists, or even a melanistic one, in the same respect.
In my humble opinion, genetic “defects” as we tend to view them as, are possibly, genetic “attempts”.
If a genetic variation occurs, its’ success or failure in its’ current environment will rely on darwinism to determine its’ viability.
We may never know the reasons why any particular variant does better or worse in any given environment, but it’s reasonable to suggest that evolution CAN work in this way.
We can argue that an albino “anything” is less likely to survive. But what of a melanistic, a black pastel, an anerythristic, an axanthic, a hypo, a scaleless, a translucent, etc., The list goes on, wouldn’t do even better than the “normal” population?
You’re nearly all aware of incredible reptiles that defy the odds. Bright yellow canary green tree pythons. Rainbows of colors in a collared lizard. Dazzling displays of colors in venomous animals. We had such incredible examples well before captive breeding and selective breeding were even an idea.
We, as a hobby, DO keep variants that would obviously not survive. Albino, scaleless, piebald, “spider”, etc.
I’m not here to promote any given trait, but before you condemn a “defect” like a lack of scales, be sure you don’t appreciate an albino.
Our hobby is now focused on variants. I’ve been into reptiles since before mutations were the big buzz. It’s clear what mutations have done for our hobby, but I still appreciate the beauty of the normals I grew up with.
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This point is all based off them surviving in the wild. Clearly there not in the wild think we are talking about genes that affect there quality of life in captivity.
This is really stretching it. An albino has zero quality of life issues.
One last point the spider that was found in the wild was an adult. There are albino reptiles found in the wild all the time.
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That’s what they are, the genetic mutations might be random but them occurring aren’t.
It’s all probability. If 10 albino snakes are born, then one might survive. All it takes is that one to pass on its genes.
And all of those morphs were found in the wild and imported in at least one species. Albino for BPs, scaleless for ratsnakes, piebald for retics, and spider was an imported morph.
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This is completely species dependent. In a species that needs intense UV exposure (like pogona) albino animals do have QOL issues. It’s why when albinism did pop up in the species in captivity in Australia, They were not able to establish it. They couldn’t get the animals to do well at all.
Well bred, well taken care of silks have comparable life spans to normal scaled and leatherback animals. I still personally will not make them with that being the sole purpose of the pairing. 