Here’s where I’m coming from. When I was working for a pet store, I ordered a 20 lot of juvenile Beardies. When they arrived, 5 were Silkbacks. I did a ton of research on their care. It was a major pain to individually house and feed them, to ensure that no insects were left behind to chew on them, to mist them 3 times a day, to constantly soak them, to individually put (expensive) lotion on each one each time. Despite all the care they received, I still had skin issues with some of them. That’s right, just because you are doing everything you should for a Silkback, does not guarantee healthy skin. All five of them also always seemed a little “weaker” than other dragons I’d raised, and it was apparent in their growth rate.
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It’s comparable to hot snakes or arachnids. It takes more work and time, should only be kept and bred by experienced keepers and when breeders sell they should responsibly sell only to buyers who are able to care for them. However the problem comes in when inexperienced owners aren’t able to properly take care of them and the animal usually ends up in a worse situation. Why do you think they were weaker and didn’t grow as fast? I wouldn’t think that it would cause calcium deficiencies, much higher stress, eating problems, or any other symptoms that could cause weaker animals.
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I couldn’t say why, but they were less active, seen lying down a lot more often than standing up. I made sure they ate enough food, but they seemed less able to process the food into body mass. Again, I couldn’t tell you exactly why.
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That’s useful information, it would probably either be from the scaleless part (ie. not able to regulate heat) or another affect that goes along with the morph (like the wobble in spider).
Based on the new information I think that keeping these should take many precautions and should only be bred by very experienced keepers that are prepared to keep the offspring if they can’t find great homes for them. I don’t think that the average reptile breeder should breed them because they likely wouldn’t have the experience or resources to breed them and they might not have the contacts to find proper homes for them.
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As far as finding homes for them, I obviously had a different market than a boutique breeder would have, but not one single customer of mine wanted to buy them once I explained their special needs. I had them for ages, unsold. I ended up returning them to the supplier for partial credit (lost money on them). Who knows what ended up happening to them. I imagine they made their way to another pet store that did not research their needs, and they either died there or were sold to an uninformed customer, and then died.
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True that…I’ve heard some people use the wrong type of lotion and then place the animal under their heat lamp and basically cook/burn the beardie.
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Totally agree with you but it’s not just in the reptile community. It can be any animal. Dogs are a good example. Might be more common for reptiles because they don’t show pain or discomfort like other animals do. Any animal that will make someone money will always be abused unfortunately.
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Some will say ‘Oh they are healthy its just that they shed alot compared to other beardies’
Well shedding isn’t fun for any lizard so imagine how bad it is for these guys that seem to constantly be shedfing…I’m sure its itchy or very uncomfortable. So if the animal has to suffer thru alot more shedding than others I feel that alone is detrimental to the poor animals way of life.
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Adult wild scaleless animals of numerous species have been found in the wild. So it is no more detrimental than any other genetic mutation in that regard.
People will like what they like and keep what they keep and breed what they breed. You have no more right to damn them for their choices than they have to damn you for yours. There is too much divisiveness in the herp community as it is, why do we need to find more reasons to fight amongst ourselves? No one is forcing you to keep Silkies, so just enjoy what you want to keep.
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Just a thought in regards to this comment. I actually think it’s really important for our community to hold itself accountable in regards on what should be bred and kept. I don’t have enough knowledge on silkies to make an educated decision on them specifically, but bring critical of certain morphs with defects that potentially affect quality of life shouldn’t be looked at as divisive. Doing such is putting the wellbeing and health of animal in question first, which is what anyone in this community should be most concerned about.
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Counterpoint here
As determined by whom exactly? The PetTuber with an agenda and his extensive fanbase? Or actual biologists and geneticist? Or pet enthusiasts in general?
97% of the time, the person advocating against a given morph is doing so based on their own personal biases, not on anything that is actually a proven fact.
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If I can invest the time and extra attention needed to fully care for a Silkie so that its health and well being is being perfectly met then I should be able to keep the morph. But because the OP thinks Silkies are trash and defective, he says they should all be exiled from the hobby and no one should keep or breed them
Who is in the right here?
Which goes right back to my above:
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I will revisit my post in a different thread about the slippery-slope we tread when we begin to talk about what should and should not be allowed in the hobby
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Bottom line is that at the end of the day, we are keeping animals in a box. We should be encouraging people to provide the best care they can give to whatever it is they want to keep, but we should never be telling them that they cannot keep something they are able to care for simply because we ourselves do not like that thing. When we start doing that, we are no better than the AR activists that are saying we should not be allowed to keep reptiles because they are not cute and fuzzy like puppies and kitties
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Good points…Good to see everyone here can have a controversial discussion without killing each other Lol.
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This is what I love about our community also
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I think determining whether or not a morph or trait is negatively affecting an animal to the point where quality of life is of concern can only be determined by a veterinarian or related field of expertise. Anyone claiming to know for sure otherwise is a little in over their head, whether it be breeder or some other person. We need actual scientific studies, but there is little interest for studies of these topics because it is very niche. I am of the opinion such morphs or traits (not even specifically talking about silkies here, but it is for sure one that should be studied) should not be bred until a conclusion can be made by a qualified person.
Personally, I just abstain from ownership of any questionable morphs/traits and await if anything credible can prove otherwise. Even if that means nothing is ever proven, then I just never own that morph. This is coming from someone who really wants a scaleless BP; I love how they look but I am just too unsure of their overall ethical standing.
Ah, the controversial Silkback dragon convo.
Silks are made by breeding two incomplete dominant leatherback animals. It’s the homozygous form of the mutation.
They actually don’t require that much additional care. People overcare quite a bit. You don’t need to have sherpa blankets as a “substrate” or remove anything with corners out of the enclosure. You shouldn’t be lathering them up with lotion, it can actually cause more harm/shedding difficulty than good. It can even cause bacterial infections. Toes and tails should be paid special attention to durring shedding. Vegetable glycerin is good to use to assist with shedding difficulty.
They do dehydrate faster than normal dragons.
They absolutely should not be bred. Not even the males. The scales of the female can tear up their undersides.
They should not be produced as the sole reason of a pairing.
Out of 16000 eggs we produced last season, we produced a couple silkback animals. We go out of our way to not produce them. Sometimes we need certain line crosses to continue with a project, and the two perfect animals happen to be leather. When we do, we give them away for free to certain people we know understand the Husbandry parameters of the morph.
They aren’t as forgiving Husbandry wise as regular scale or leatherback animals. That’s the problem with them. A lapse in Husbandry that a regular bearded would be “ok” with, will kill a silk.
They are pets. Well bred and taken care of silks have a comparable life span to the average dragon.
Anyways, that’s my two cents.
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I think any well informed breeder or keeper for that matter who keeps these animals should be able to give an honest assessment if the gene affects quality of life. Don’t think you need studies for that.
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Do people ever breed two silkbacks together? I’m not a bearded dragon person, so this thread has been very educational for me.
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An admirable stance. Now… Can you please point to any controversial morph in the hobby where the person advocating against that morph fits those criteria?? 
As I noted above, pretty much universally it is person with a personal bias against the morph in question that is calling for their elimination from the hobby, while berating anyone that wants to keep that morph, and not someone that can point to anything that is actually a proven fact.
And that is why I say that people should just keep what they like and let others do the same.
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I mean that’s the answer to the issue that you are rightfully pointing out. Yes pretty much everyone who is advocating against or for the bad or “good” ethics of controversial morphs doesn’t really have the credentials to make a conclusion. A well-conducted study on such would bring the needed information to light, but is unlikely to happen.
I would disagree at least on this topic on controversial morphs. Yes I would trust most any breeder with a good reputation that this normal beardie, or albino bp, or motley corn snake (or whatever non-controversial morph) to be healthy. I think there is too much bias (for at least me personally, everyone has a different viewpoint) to trust any one person’s opinion on controversial morphs. A breeder is just that, a breeder. Not a veterinarian or a relevant scientist, unless they have also undergone that career path.
These are just my own thoughts. I think our hobby needs more science to make ethical and safe decisions around the animals we keep.
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