I’m not sure if its been done but the poor female would most likely get hurt and get an infection. I also assume the clutch would have a lot of babies that would not make it…But I don’t know much about breeding so who knows.
For an interesting perspective, consider evolution. Variants pop up naturally, and as evolution permits, only the strong survive.
You may wonder why an albino animal exists, or even a melanistic one, in the same respect.
In my humble opinion, genetic “defects” as we tend to view them as, are possibly, genetic “attempts”.
If a genetic variation occurs, its’ success or failure in its’ current environment will rely on darwinism to determine its’ viability.
We may never know the reasons why any particular variant does better or worse in any given environment, but it’s reasonable to suggest that evolution CAN work in this way.
We can argue that an albino “anything” is less likely to survive. But what of a melanistic, a black pastel, an anerythristic, an axanthic, a hypo, a scaleless, a translucent, etc., The list goes on, wouldn’t do even better than the “normal” population?
You’re nearly all aware of incredible reptiles that defy the odds. Bright yellow canary green tree pythons. Rainbows of colors in a collared lizard. Dazzling displays of colors in venomous animals. We had such incredible examples well before captive breeding and selective breeding were even an idea.
We, as a hobby, DO keep variants that would obviously not survive. Albino, scaleless, piebald, “spider”, etc.
I’m not here to promote any given trait, but before you condemn a “defect” like a lack of scales, be sure you don’t appreciate an albino.
Our hobby is now focused on variants. I’ve been into reptiles since before mutations were the big buzz. It’s clear what mutations have done for our hobby, but I still appreciate the beauty of the normals I grew up with.
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This point is all based off them surviving in the wild. Clearly there not in the wild think we are talking about genes that affect there quality of life in captivity.
This is really stretching it. An albino has zero quality of life issues.
One last point the spider that was found in the wild was an adult. There are albino reptiles found in the wild all the time.
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That’s what they are, the genetic mutations might be random but them occurring aren’t.
It’s all probability. If 10 albino snakes are born, then one might survive. All it takes is that one to pass on its genes.
And all of those morphs were found in the wild and imported in at least one species. Albino for BPs, scaleless for ratsnakes, piebald for retics, and spider was an imported morph.
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This is completely species dependent. In a species that needs intense UV exposure (like pogona) albino animals do have QOL issues. It’s why when albinism did pop up in the species in captivity in Australia, They were not able to establish it. They couldn’t get the animals to do well at all.
Well bred, well taken care of silks have comparable life spans to normal scaled and leatherback animals. I still personally will not make them with that being the sole purpose of the pairing. 
I never said I was against people keeping them. Said I wouldn’t personally,I also stated that haven’t kept or bred any scaleless reptiles. I personally think they are predisposed to health issues. This is my personal opinion. If a certain species of albinos are as well I won’t keep those either.
I agree with you, we do not need to be an accredited university or institution just to make educated observations and advise on proper husbandry. Scientists, biologists, and teachers are people using tools. We can educate ourselves to use the same tools and the scientific method to come to the same conclusions.
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It might take us a little bit longer, but yes we can come to the same conclusions.
But personally I know that whereas we keepers of reptiles because of a passion for them would be up to do extra intensive and yes expensive care. Some scientist that aren’t as attached or passionate about specific a animal might not. That is part of that bias that mentions Dr. Travis Wyman( @t_h_wyman )
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I was being very general with my response. Yes, regardless of bias, from a study standpoint we should be able to conduct the same type of experiments with husbandry and care to note if there are any issues with the scaleless animals. Many breeders keep them successfully so I’m all for the option to keep them if you choose so. From the breeder standpoint, some of them make excellent breeders to create new phenotypes. I understand both sides of the argument but the freedom to own the morph is the most important thing for the hobby as a whole. Otherwise, we can ultimately lose our right to own the species entirely. One person not having succes doesn’t qualify the morph as having issues that are too difficul for everyone and should not be kept. We just need to keep sharing our experiences with the morph and keep the discussion going. Ultimately the market will determine if the morph continues or dies out within the community. Proper husbandry needs to be shared for any struggling with the morph. There are several species that have been introduced to the hobby and fail in captivity, that doesn’t mean the animal isn’t viable it just means that whatever we’re doing wrong isn’t working.
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These debates get me. A lot of people take it personally like THEY don’t like the animal. However it’s an animal regardless of how it looks it still needs feeding, water, care…extra care. Someone will always breed what others don’t like.
I personally don’t find it ethical to breed these. Why breed an animal that is going to have health issues? I don’t agree with that AT ALL!!!
I keep a scaleless corn. No health issues at all. I’ve been called all sorts of names and I rarely take photos of him. If these had health issues I wouldn’t of given money to support a breeder being unethical. I also won’t buy of mass producing so called hobbyists for that reason!! If someone were to give me this animal then YES. I would do my very very best to care for it and would go out of my way to do this. Would I promote these guys NOPE!! Having one would make me voice my opinions about how unethical it was. Scales in diurnal basking species are there for a reason…same thing why albino beardies don’t make it!!! I like morphs…Just as long as they are ethical. I don’t much care for peoples opinions it’s how they treat animals at the end of the day. You get those who will try and justify a certain trait because…well often comes down to money!!! And then those who point blank demonise the animal, when in fact they should be demonizing the breeders producing these!! I have been in the leo breeding game for a long time. I have a collection of mistreated enigma and lemon frost who I took on because TBH as soon as they breeders realized they couldnt get their money it was a “can’t breed, won’t feed” mentality. This is after they proclaimed they were some kind of geneticists and they could “breed these health issues” out of the morph…Often the “passion” people talk about is their “passion” for income and their paypal balance from breeding. I have a lot of mouths to feed and a lot of electric to run. Annually I breed animals for myself. I part with excess to friends in the hobby for donation or a trade with a species they have bred. I no longer mass breed like many moons ago. I adore and wanted coral red bearded dragons… So from 2 clutches I have incubated one out of each. I need to be able to sleep at night with a clear conscience I am doing the right thing by my animals. If this means culling eggs (well feeding them to to red foot tortoises and tegu) then so be it. I have 62 leopard geckos. I have what 12 eggs cooking. I pulled the plug on my ball python eggs and froze them. I have higher end corns but not breeding any. I do have king rat snake eggs which I am stoked about. And here in the UK we don’t have such thing as captive bred iguanas really. All are mass shipped in captive farmed. I have a group of 1:3 red iguanas. I have always wanted to incubate and raise some. So I have 8 eggs incubating from a 20 egg clutch. I will also have 2 or 3 to incubate from another female. I won’t bother from the 3rd. These guys will lay eggs regardless of a male. I have spent the last 2 years paying a lot of attention to diet and best lighting and supplements for these guys to be able to bounce back after laying. Making sure the male is in great health too. I plan to keep 3 or 4 and I have close friends that are more than responsible to take decent care of an ig. I never have to incubate or do this again though if I don’t want. I’ve gone off on one now hahaha. But yea the word here is “ETHICAL”
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This is a misapplication of how “survival of the fittest” actually works.
‘Fittest’ does not mean “strongest”.
‘Fittest’ means the animal most likely to pass on its genes under a given set of conditions.
If I asked which was more “fit” between a wild-type ball and an Albino Pied Scaleless Spider, most people would say that it was the wild-type. But they would be wrong if I was asking about “fitness” in terms of the morph-driven community the ball side of the hobby falls under. People very specifically breed to produce as few wild-type animals as possible. A wild-type is unlikely to be bought and even more unlikely to be bred, which makes it a genetic dead-end. Fitness value = 0
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I guess my general point was missed. It’s a heated subject for sure. But this hobby is very focused on reproducing genes that would typically not survive in the wild. Fittest or strongest, it doesn’t matter. We reproduce what we like to see. I don’t advocate any particular “weak gene”.
Our goal as keepers is deeply seated in finding the husbandry secrets for success. Be it a wild normal, or an animal with a genetic “defect”.
I do understand the opposition to extreme examples. But sanctity of life is a defect of the human mind. Yet, we all swap mosquitoes, mid-bite.
There is an inherent problem with misappropriated care. It occurs with healthy normals and it occurs with intentionally bred genetics.
The answer is in educated care.
I can’t claim “fact” status, but I do try to present a humble opinion. No matter what your goals are with genetics, we are mostly playing with stuff that would never make it to adulthood in the wild. I feel bad seeing a “spider wobble”, but I also see it as an animal that lost control of its’ excitement when something triggered it. My experience? They smell food!
Breeding animals in captivity takes manipulation. Reproducing natural habitat and the seasons involved, we are subject to dealing with the results. We might cull a severely kinked hatchling, but animals are born blind, deaf, different colors, different attitudes, etc.
In fact, captive breeding’s biggest intention is to eliminate wild behavior! How many of you avoided reticulated pythons for years out of their reputation, only to fall in love with their ultimately appreciated intelligence and captive docility?
We learn, and we grow as we learn. Scientist worldwide embrace the unusual to find the secrets we demand to know.
I don’t wish to come off as an embassador for “unethical” practice. I just hope to impart a different view in being a little open-minded, sometimes.
Love the replies…I especially like the idea of scientists and teachers actually doing studies and later educating the reptile community on proper care.
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I’m against silkies. The mutation prevents them from engaging in natural behaviors safely due to the lack of scales plus all of the extra work to keep them healthy. Obviously some morphs do require slightly different care from the wild variety (less powerful uvb lighting for albinos is what comes to mind), but with these guys it’s just too much. All of the lotion and soaking they need is a big indicator of bad life quality, just because it can live as long as a regular bearded dragon doesn’t mean it’s healthy. Not to mention that reptiles, while not necessarily harmed by constant human contact, they don’t benefit from it but rather tolerate it. Scaleless morphs with any reptile really just seem to be more of an excuse to provide sub-par, unenriching housing conditions for the animal which is already a problem with scaled animals. That’s a whole other can of worms, but I do feel that it fits in with the argument against silkies.
If we could produce specimens with stronger skin then I’d take a more middle stance, but as it stands silkies are unethical in my opinion.
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I agree with most of your statements except I think that if someone is willing to put in the work to keep them then they should be able to even if most people don’t want to put that much work into them.
Survival of the best suited to a particular environment. In captivity eating well and being striking is better suited then being finicky and ordinary. I always hear about how well many spider ball pythons eat and their beauty which probably has a lot to do with their numbers.
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Feeding doesn’t have a whole lot to do with ability to pass on genes (whatever the breeder wants to breed). Unless the breeder is trying to breed for the best eaters rather than the genes and phenotype then that’s not likely to be the case. Spider is likely so popular because of what it does in combos. It has a very popular phenotype and is an older base morph. This is also proved because all of the extremist animal rights groups are targeting this instead of worse/easier to target morphs (most allelic morphs with spider).
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Feeding can impact ability to pass on genes. A better feeding animal is going to be more likely to grow faster and thereby reach breeding size sooner and thereby pass more of its genes on. A better feeder is also more likely to bounce back from breeding faster, increasing the likelihood that it can be bred back-to-back years, whereas a less robust feeder is more likely to need an extra year to gain back the nutritional losses from breeding
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Well a silkie is a bearded dragon with no spikes nor scales it’s basically the equivalent of skin making it incredibly fragile and dangerous to breed due to the females get scabs and having skin damage, they also have higher risk of things like sunburn and a whole slew of other skin problems. They also require much more intensive care (which I do not know personally) and in general fragile.
In my opinion silkies are terrible to breed because if you need more care and they are affected in a negative way that actually affects quality of life, don’t breed it. And if you want better patterning just for for a leather back!