Just curious about the community opinion.
What do you guys think, as buyers or sellers, about the idea. As DNA testing gets faster, cheaper and more accurate, what do you think about animals in the trade being chipped and having a DNA test for positive individual ID of both the animal and the genes?
Is it too “big brother?” Are the genetic waters already too muddy? Would this be worth doing for really high end animals? What would be the break point? Would you be in favor if it meant you could be sure of the line or genes you were selling/getting? Who would pay? Should it be by request only? Would that noticeably affect pricing, or make sales harder or easier?
We’re already starting to see some push towards disease test results requested in sales, what about ID and genetics? How far off are we? Do you think the “big breeders” already chip/DNA test their most valuable animals? Should they? Should we all?
Could we as a community, have a chip ID database for people to voluntarily register their animals to help with line tracing and to help with reducing theft and fraud?
Not saying I agree with all these, just curious, what does everyone think?
I have no interest in chipping my collection, but I would gladly have it done to an animal I produced on the request of a customer, so long as the customer covered the cost.
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Why would you choose not to chip?
Not judging, genuinely interested in your reasons.
What about DNA testing?
(if it was cheap enough, that’s my sticking point, cause I’m a tightwad🤑)
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Why chip animals that aren’t going anywhere? What benefit would it provide, that would offset the stress involved in that process? Causing stress to reproductive females can often send them off cycle for long periods of time. Years in some cases.
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Ok, good point.
I agree, you dont want to stress your animals. I guess I was more thinking about younger animals and having an ID that didnt rely on pictures of patterns that might change over time. I could see where you might be concerned about stressing an adult. Not to mention possible exposure at the vet.
What about DNA testing? Do you think that would ever be something we might see as a regular thing?
When they are big enough, i have all of my Monitors chipped. I am doibg this for proof of ownership and ID if one of them ever gets out/lost/stolen or if i ever need to get a permit to keep them. My Tegus and dwarf retic are chipped because I did have to get a permit to keep them.
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I would absolutely DNA test/chip when the research and technology is available. You can bet the second they ID the gene for clown I’ll be designing primers to genotype my own babies
What if they’re stolen? Being able to track and ID stolen animals is huge
It also would allow you to verify the breeder/genetics of an animal that may have been passed around through several homes
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I would love to be able to test possible het clowns and eventually possible het desert ghost and tri-stripe when I start producing them. Hopefully they can locate some of those and other in demand recessive genes soon.
I could see chipping animals that aren’t as easy to ID with a good pattern photo like luecistics etc. Might not be a bad idea more generally. I know the chips have been an option for years. Any problems or tricks to using with snakes?
Now that’s a good question. Maybe one of our resident vet experts will answer.
Are you going to set your own lines for clown?
I didn’t realize that chipping was part of permitting, but I can see it.
@chesterhf how far off are they with the gene IDs and do you know of any othe commonly kept species with similar projects? I imagine the qould be a pretty high demand for analysis in BCC and BCI.
What do you mean?
https://sites.google.com/emich.edu/ballpythongeneticsproject/home/current-progress?authuser=0
So far they’ve identified the causative genes/variants that make up the albino morphs (albino, ultramel, lav. albino)
and another group,
found a likely causative variant for piebald
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I didn’t know about ultramel. Are they going to start offering any of these tests for sale anytime soon?
Doubt it, the change in base pairs in albino/toffee/candy and ultramel will require sequencing (which is expensive) and the deletion in lavender albino can be ID’d with a PCR, but neither will be something that most people can just test at home. Maybe one day it will be available, but I don’t think it’s going to be cost effective for most people to pay for unless it’s a really expensive morph
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I didn’t necessarily mean as a home test. Just a commercially available service. Not sure if it’s more of an academic exercise so far or if there are plans for a business.
Not sure what I would be willing to spend on a lab test. It costs a lot of time, work, and money to raise up a possible het female and get eggs out of her.
There is also the side of selling babies. I’ll probably eventually be producing more female possibly hets than I want to keep. Is one know triple het female worth enough more than a bunch of possible triple hets to be worth testing them all? Will there be testing efficiency to looking at multiple genes at once such that when available I can test for four genes at less than the cost of four separate individual gene tests?
Gotta figure any testing would likely start with the most expensive/rarest animals to ensure they are what the breeders claim.
I’m honestly surprised they don’t already do this more with the rarer kept species, especially the more endangered ones. If nothing else, to keep an eye on population diversity. I read “Tears of the cheetah” some years ago, great read, very sobering and a neat look at how DNA testing for animals has application in the world outside the lab.
@chesterhf I just wondered if you had a really nice line of clown. You could chip and test to offer as proof for buyers that an animal was genuinely one of yours.
Theft is something I don’t have any concern/future concern of. I live in the country on property, always will. My home security is such that something would have to be worth more than my snake collection before anyone is going to risk dying to steal it.
I was speaking mostly in terms of adult animals currently in my collection. Not future reproductive adults.
I’m not opposed to microchipping reptiles, there is just no circumstance where I see the stress being worth it when it comes to my current reproductive females. A trip to the vet and a little pinch may not seem like much but I’ve seen adult females go off cycle for multiple years just going from a friends house 20 minutes away to mine.
My existing adult males I wouldn’t be opposed to prior to sale if I decided to move them. Babies I have no hang ups, other than maybe cost.
Something to keep in mind though, is the cost to breeders. Which will drive up the cost of the animal. Last time I had a dog chipped it was $25. That would mean that for a good season my microchip cost would be $2800-3200. Probably more, since I would guess that $25 doesn’t cover a chip anymore either. The last time I had it done was a couple years ago.
That cost above also assumes that a breeder’s time is worthless. It would take more than a quick trip to the vet to chip 120 animals. Most of us value our time, and so if we charged for it, it would further increase the cost of the animal.
Also, food for thought, what about all the incorrectly identified animals we see every day? Information is only good if it’s actually good 
All excellent points. Totally agree about the time cost, and it’s not like you could do them all in one trip. Maybe get a bulk rate discount from the chip company and get a reduced procedure rate at the vet school for training students (might even get us some more herp vets).
Certainly breeders would pass on the costs, which is why I don’t think you would ever see a normal or lower cost animal being chipped except on request, but I wonder if it would ever become the norm for the higher end stuff.
Absolutely agree with the point about the misidentified stuff. GIGO law applies. Which is why, I think the testing would go hand in hand if we ever got there.
I think you over-estimate the “trauma” of the process for chipping. If you have popped a ball, you have exerted the same degree of “trauma”. Also, given you can chip balls as hatchlings, the concern about setting a female back is kind of moot.
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Nope. Not sure I would advocate a total novice try it but if you have ever used a syringe in any medical/experimental capacity then you could do it easy enough. And I am sure that if you have a vet you are in a good relationship with they would be willing to teach you.
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In addition to the two Hilary mentioned, Ben Morrill is also working on an identification project through his Rare Genetics business
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Hannah is also reporting identification of YB complex. And they are currently working on BlkPastel complex and Genetic Stripe
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Hannah has said that they plan to offer it commercially in the coming years
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Their Albino complex are all able to be ID’d via PCR so it is a simple gel run to visualize
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Probably looking at $20 per animal
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Cannot do anything if there is no reference genome sequence for the animal you are interested in. And the cost of sequencing is not inconsequential, so researchers are not out there sequencing everything willy-nilly
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You can buy chips in bulk for ~$7 per chip. The injector is about $20 (and is reusable). Biggest cost is the reader at a couple hundred bucks
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