Ok. I am definitely no a ball python geneticist. But I do really like them. And a couple of the morphs that we really like is spider and champagne. I know that both of these can have wobble. However, in a effort to learn more about this gene, and possibly even give that snake a chance we have a few questions, the wife and I.
If a breeder says that the snake has no wobble, should that breeder be believed?
Will that baby snake develop a wobble as it ages?
I’m thinking that there are levels of wobble, as in severity?
Is there a difference in wobble between those that are spider and those that are champagne?
I’m not going to be breeding any of these snakes, so that won’t be a concern.
I know @akmorphs Anna has had some spiders listed that she said had no wobble. I would 100% trust her but I would be a little wary of less known breeders claiming that.
From my understanding no they usually don’t but it is always possible.
Also, there are so many spiders in rescues that is you can I would definitely recommend checking some out.
They can develop or experience changes to the amount of wobble as they age. Snakes that corkscrew generally always do that from birth but it’s fairly rare. Most people keep their snakes too hot, and heat is a stressor that increases wobble. Stress of any sort whether it be related to poor husbandry or housing will exacerbate wobble. Some snakes get better with age as well.
I would trust a trust worthy breeder when they say a snake doesn’t wobble, assuming that snake is at least like 8-12 months old. But even then, you sell that snake to someone who keeps it with parameters slightly off and it may wobble.
I have had spiders that have never inverted or twisted but I can still tell they have wobble due to subtle body movements.
Spiders and some of the super forms are the worst wobble. Champagnes it’s pretty minimal and you generally won’t ever catch them upside down.
Hidden Gene Womas can be bad sometimes too. Most of the others it’s pretty innocuous.
I’ve got spiders that do have wobble that are old enough to have a drivers license or buy a beer. They otherwise behave exactly the same as all my other animals. It’s just not the issue it’s made it out to be.
Absolutely, but that doesn’t mean the same animal will not wobble in your care. Especially if shipping is involved.
It depends. The issue that causes the wobble is always there, its just how you work to reduce it that matters. A person with one leg longer than the other will always have one leg longer than the other, but the right shoes can help alleviate the problems caused by that.
It has always struck me as rather disingenuous when a breeder sells as a spider by saying “this snake has no wobble”. They may not have observed one, but ultimately the defect is still there. What ends up happening is people market at expos like this, and new hobbyists end up shocked and disappointed when the spider “that doesn’t have a wobble” they brought home from an expo starts to corkscrew down the line.
The trait displays incomplete penetrance, so not every individual is going to be affected the same way and with the same severity, but when a breeder claims that the animal has no wobble, it’s not exactly a true statement because the issue is still present. It would be much more honest to state, “I haven’t observed a wobble in this animal yet”. Especially because things could change with age/stress
I have 2 spiders in my collection currently. Also hatched a few.
If the breeder seems reputable, good reviews, ect… Yes. But that won’t mean that the snake won’t wobble for you. Because what they really mean is the animal doesn’t show a visible wobble. Stress will sometimes make them wobble. My oldest gal is my spider. The only time I saw her wobble was when she first arrived and she was way too stressed out by her first habitat (turns out she’s a super defensive tub dweller for life).
Chesterhf does bring up a good point about the ‘no wobble vs visible wobble’. I always refer to it as visible wobble when selling and breeders I’ve spoken to have as well.
Again… Stress is a huge factor. If they don’t wobble as a hatchling, they tend not to wobble if kept in good conditions with low stress. Disease, changes in habitat or care can make a normally fine snake wobble.
Definitely! Some don’t show a visible wobble. They just may be very slow at turning over… Some are fine except when they need to figure out up and down. One of mine only had a head tilt and a slightly stronger wiggle when keying in on prey. I hatched out my worst wobbler this year and she’s improving as she’s gaining some weight and muscle, but she’ll even sit with her head upside down while she coils on her heat spot. When she hatched I was planning to put her down if she didn’t eat on her own. She’s great at eating mice though so she’s just a little bit quirky. I personally have never seen the horrible ones in person… But I’m not denying they exist either.
Nope! Spider just gets the most attention because it’s the most common in combos and such.
Basically, keep them happy and stress free for the least amount of wobble. Sometimes they’ll just do something silly that reminds you that they get a bit of vertigo. If you’re really concerned about the wobble, I would go for a more local breeder where you can see the snake in person and comfortable and keep from having them shipped. Then just take any chances in habitat and feeding a bit slower than usual.
For the two spiders I had for sale and have sold I did list them stating that they did not have any wobble or corkscrewing or any of the known “spider” issues. Now, for those who reached out to me, I did advise that they could see the potential for a wobble or a small bobbing back and forth at feeding time since the snakes were always “excited” to eat. I also mention that in their off spring, that the potential to see any type of ‘wobble’ activity would be more likely visible during feeding time if you watched them. Did I ever notice anything that made me go, ‘god damn that’s a wobble’. No. I’m kinda sad I sold my Spinnerblast, but she just no longer had anything to do with my pairings. She was probably one of my better snakes with her temperament and her overall ability to be a garbage can when needed.
Thanks for sharing that great spectrum chart! @eaglereptiles I really like that way of looking/thinking about it! I just want to reiterate a wobble is a wobble no matter what morph has it, but @spottedbull you are most likely to see or get a single gene ball python with it in spiders. @akmorphs was disclosing the fact to potential buyers about the possibility of her spider ball pythons developing it or passing it on through breeding, which is what all breeders should strive for-honesty! Like was pointed out, you would need to know or trust the breeder who is telling you this. I’ve had spiders with wobble and they were awesome pets! I just had issues with breeding them and having some really bad corkscrew type of offspring, that’s the only reason I don’t work with them. As pets, no issue! Like @ballornothing said his are great! Their even old enough to go on beer runs for him!
My spiders all have varying levels of wobble, most of which are minor — there are a few individuals that will show more wobble during handling or feeding though, but none that are severe.
My champagne cinnamon female I have doesn’t show any significant wobble at all that I’ve noticed, at least not like what I’ve seen in the spiders.
I really appreciate at this information folks! This is such a cool community! Lots to discuss with the wife now about these snakes and possibility of adding one to our collection. Which in turn will be used, possibly, in our classes. Unless it stresses them to much. Then they can live out their lives in peace and tranquility. Until I need a snake holding day!
From the research I’ve done: The wobble cannot be bred out. Just because a parent has a low wobble does not mean all the offspring will have a low wobble. And just because a parent has a severe wobble does not mean all the offspring will have a severe wobble. There’s no rhyme or reason to it. The wobble just varies greatly from Spider to Spider.
Let’s see if the more experienced folks agree with that.
All spiders have the defect it’s well documented, some are more”wobbly” than others, I’ve bred spiders for 16 years, bred a good many and only once have I ever had a cork screw and that was immediately after hatching, like the previous person said I have some that are old enough to drive and have never exhibited anything other than a tremor on feeding, and being a bad shot while feeding. I have never had one develop a worsening wobble later on. However if temps are a factor I keep my girls at 29c all year round and my room is air conditioned on a thermostat so the animals won’t get too warm so I don’t expect them to worsen
The wobble is due the gene that causes the pattern or vice versa. Same goes for duckbill and kinking in homozygous Blk Pastel complex stuff, and macrophthalmia in homozygous Lesser stuff.
Genes don’t just do one thing. If one of the tasks a gene is responsible for is damaged, it’s likely that the other tasks it performs will be damaged as well.
