Hello! Ive been on morphmarket for a good while now, but only recently been able to seriously consider purchasing a snake, i have three currently (two BPs and one CBC) but i would love to take on a baby BP or two. Ive had my current two BPs for 12+ years and have learned a lot, but i know theres a lot more to learn.
So i had a few questions i was hoping someone with a bit more experience with the morphs might be able to help me figure out exactly what im looking for as far as morphs go, and perhaps some insight to what catches my eye the most. Im looking at getting at least one, maybe two babies, depending on the answers i get, so any help is appreciated!
For starters, I know I want a solid white snake(and a solid black one, but my pockets arent deep enough for one of those!) When i first started looking years ago, they were simply a “black/blue eye lucy” - though now it seems theres several variations of this when it comes to combos, and that some are more prone to having yellow hues/patterns on them. I also recognize that some change colors with age, andguarantees cant be made how a snake is going to turn out, but if i was looking for a snake that was going to be as white as white can be, what morph would best fit this? Anyone have pictures of their babies that were white as babies and stayed that way? Are solid white snakes more prone to health issues?
Then, on the topic of axanthic(i love a good white/black contrast) do they stay that way throughout their entire life? I saw somewhere that most turn a dull brown as they age, is that true? I also recall reading that VPI is the best for keeping the white/black contrast, true?
And then lastly ive also fallen in love with some snakes ive seen, but they carry the spider trait, or a trait that has the wobble condition attached to it(cinnamon i think was one…). Are these snakes worth investing in? I know theres some controversy around the ethics of breeding these snakes, which i wouldnt be doing anyways, but if the seller doesnt disclose whether or not they have a wobble, is that something i should be concerned about? Or is it not as big of a deal as some people make it out to be?
I’m not super familiar with simple white snakes (since I don’t personally like them) so I will let someone else who is more knowledgeable on the combos that would make them chime in.
For your Axanthic question, you can buy a very nice Axanthic animal and the animal as it ages, depending on who you buy from, can keep it’s color. It might dull slightly as an adult, but it won’t turn brown. The snakes that stay good looking into adult hood are because that breeder has linebred his stock. VPI is the strongest contender at finding a beautiful snake that will stay mostly that black and white, unless you want to go to the TSK godfather himself (JD) and get in on his stock. VPI is also the most easily obtainable, so I don’t think you’d have a problem getting a black and white snake. You can always ask the seller for photos of the parents if they do not provide them on the listings, and go from there.
As for Spider, when I first started out I told myself I would never get into it. Eventually I did, and the issues that people dragged it out to be were imo overdrawn. A reputable breeder/seller will mention in the ad if the animal has a wobble and the severity of it. Never be afraid to ask that as well. I personally enjoy the spider complex and the combos that made from it. Even single gene spiders are pretty neat, and since you have no intention of breeding them, you shouldn’t have an issue finding a good one on the marketplace side.
So as far as “solid white” snakes go, Blue Eyed Lucys and Black Eyed Lucys (Super Fire? If theres more variations someone will let you know!) are what you’re after. However Blue Eyed Lucys stay more true to the white color than Super Fires (who usually will have yellow coloration as well, especially down the spine). I own a Blue Eyed Lucy that is a Russo/Lesser variation of the BEL that was produced by BHB Reptiles and she’s pretty much stayed pure white her entire life and she is currently almost 4 years old. That doesn’t mean all BEL do stay like that though and I don’t believe there is any way to determine whether or not any BEL individual will yellow out with age other than maybe their variation… the closest you can really get is just getting a BEL and expecting a little bit of yellowing.
For Axanthics you’ll want to go with VPI for sure but if you want a high quality one I’d suggest looking for VPI breeders who specifically breed for high black/white contrast. I don’t personally work with Axanthics in BPs though so thats as much information I can offer on that note.
For Morphs that have issues there are breeders out there who are trying to breed those issues out of the morphs by selecting the highest quality BPs that do not have these issues. However since these issues are genetically linked this is a complicated process.
Cinnamon is not known for having the “wobble” but the Super Cinnys are known for producing offspring with spinal kinking and and duckbill faces which are both potentially life-threatening deformities (don’t breed 2 BPs that both have the Cinnamon Morph together). Reputable breeders will list off any issues that their snakes have and list them as “pet only”. If they do not list off these issues it doesn’t hurt to ask questions about it on Morphs that are known for genetic-linked problems.
These are the list of common Morphs (that I know of) that have issues:
•Albino- Sensitivity to light.
•Black Pastel(Super)- Kinking, Duckbill.
•Banana- Sex linked gene/Gene resides on the sex chromasomes. (Not really an issue unless you are looking for a specific sex).
•Champagne- Wobble (mild to severe), Lethal Super.
Even a Blue eye Lucy can be yellower with age than most people think. The amount of yellow a BEL picks up will vary from snake to snake.
A Super Fire (BlkEL) is whiter than BELs …but had to find without the random yellow spots.
The other option for whitest snake that you can get would be a ‘white wedding’. That combo is a spider pied. But that can have a noticable wobble. All spiders will have a wobble, but not every wobble is something we can see. Even if a spider does not have a wobble for the breeder, they can develop a more pronounced wobble due to stress or new environments.
This was a great comparison photo and convo regarding white BPs.
Thank you all SO much for all the info! Its incredibly helpful, amd i think i am now able to narrow down what exactly ill be getting next <3 i am so excited, and i appreciate all the help!
There are many genes in the Blue-Eyed Leucitic (BEL) complex and they are all, of course, allelic. Not all combinations of BEL complex genes will result in a pure white BP. If you’re looking for a pure white BEL, a Super Lesser, Lesser Mojave or Super Russo are about the closest you can get. The Super Lesser tends to have bug eyes, which don’t seem to affect the BP’s QoL. The Super Russo is known as the White Diamond. Lesser is a much more popular and versatile gene than Russo, so it’s usually cheaper.
And then there is the Black-Eyed Leucitic complex. I think the Super Fire Black-Eyed Leucitic is the most pure white and popular one there.
As far as a pure black BP, there was a recent post with pictures from a breeder with I think a two gene combo. I think one of the genes was Black Pastel. Those pics really impressed me with their blackness. With light searching, I couldn’t find the post.
There are many different lines of Axanthic and they are NOT compatible with each other. Genetic testing MAY soon prove that the MJ line and the GCR line are genetically the same. There is much debate about which of these lines holds their colors/contrast the best through adulthood.
There are many genes in the Wobble complex, the most popular being Spider. The latest research points to the wobble being an inner ear issue, NOT a neurological issue. The wobble is connected to the gene; the two cannot be separated. You cannot breed the wobble out using selective breeding; breeders trying to do this are fools. Some individuals seem to have a more severe wobble than others. Stress (which can usually be reduced via proper husbandry) seems to exacerbate the wobble. Those videos where you see a Spider corkscrewing or crawling up-side-down, I SUSPECT they were (intentionally) heavily stressed (just for shock value). The Super Spider is a lethal combo. Those are what I believe to be the facts. As far as my opinion, with a mild to medium case of the wobble, the QoL of the Spider is acceptable. I personally stay away from Spider because I don’t want to create any lethal Super Spiders.
Thank you, Christina, for grabbing that previous post of mine as it should definitely help the OP
In my many years I can state that, while they hatch out very white, every adult BluEL I have seen has had a creamy/yellowish tone to it. So a BluEL would be my last choice if going for “as white as white can be”
Some Ivory combos can be fairly white, but they also tend to retain a slight tone to them that give them that characteristic ‘ivory’ shade. A straight Ivory however (i.e., no other morphs present), will have a very clearly visible yellowed dorsal line and purple-tinted head
All-white BlkELs and BlkEL combos are the whitest snakes I personally have every seen. They are so white that they have a degree of translucency that can give them pink undertones due to the blood being visible beneath the surface
I have heard from breeders that I trust that all-white Pied combos are very similar to the all-white BlkELs. The caution there is that many of those combos either involve genes that are associated with known issues (e.g., the aforementioned wobble in Spider complex animals) or result in a defect from the synergy of the genes when combined (e.g., microphthalmia in hetBluEL and BluEL Pied)
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Not recent, but might it have been my animal?
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Christina beat me to this one LOL
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Another small correction - there are a lot more than five genes in this complex:
Spider
Champ
Spotnose
HGW
Woma
Sable
Cypress
Chocolate
Wookie
Blackhead
And a couple others I cannot remember off the top of my head
