2023 Leopard Bamboo clutch, something odd

This is Zuko, the dad, Leopard 66% Het Pied.

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Very leopard poss het pied look to me. Nothing remarkable/strange stands out to me from that pic.

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I could do some digging but I don’t have have the pics of her parents. I know Nef’s mother was a Pinstripe and her dad was a bamboo Pastel

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Yeah, definitely Nefertari having the weird stuff going on IMO.

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Any chance, did you see the pin mom? Did she have any paradoxing or anything else that looked unlike the “usual” pin?

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I’m leaning towards she is a bamboo pinstripe, and the paradox is showing the pinstripe. Paradoxing in balls is not genetic, so just the fact she is paradox should have no play in it (someone correct me if I’m wrong, I’m no expert). Since mom was pin and dad was bamboo pastel, odds could be there just don’t really know why she didn’t spit out more pins.

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This shows why paradox animals are a bigger gamble genetically. Of course even apparently visual non-paradox could have a genetic anomaly in the reproductive cells, but with a visual paradox you’re starting with prior knowledge that there’s genetically different tissues in the animal. It could affect anywhere from none of the reproductive cells to all of them, and anything in between.

Really cool result here though!

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I am glad you changed that tag :sweat_smile:

While I absolutely could produce a complete waffle on the different aspects of paradoxing… I would only be reciting what @t_h_wyman and @chesterhf have taught me over the years.

These two are real-life geneticists by trade :wink:

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My brain has been all over the place this week, hahah. Sorry for the unnecessary anxiety! I’ve been in that spot before. I should know better by now! XD

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I haven’t seen her mom, and when I dug around last night I couldn’t find anything out more. Half tempted to message the breeder I got her from but it’s been 6 years lol.

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So the consensus is that she’s actually a bamboo pinstripe, just a really low expression pinstripe? Lol. It makes sense to me it’s just wild. And honestly it makes her even more special to me. I hope to see more pinstripes from her in the future now that I know it’s a possibility.

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I think that paradox spot on her means at least some of her body’s cells are Bamboo Pinstripe, including some or all of her ovaries. The main visual part of her body is definitely no Pinstripe.

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She still is a crazy anomaly of a snake! I am leaning towards the fact that she has such a small/low expression of pinstripe that may be the reason not many of her offspring receive pinstripe? Including her 6 egg clutch 2 years ago and this one only 1 out of 12 received the pinstripe mutation! That is way out of the normal percentage you would expect. You could just have really bad luck with the odds gods but I think it may have something to do with as @crypticoils-pythons stated:

Maybe a smaller amount then the normal pinstripe? That’s all I could think of, very interesting stuff here! You truly never completely know what to expect! That’s a great perk about breeding; the mysteries, and surprises! That bamboo, pinstripe, leopard baby is so awesome as well! It would definitely make my holdback rack!

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Yes, that baby is definitely staying with me for
Sure!

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This is a super cool mystery and tbh an awesome genetic mystery for someone science oriented to dig into (if the genetics testing groups feel up to it even better!).

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Im totally a rookie and could most likely be wrong but could this be called epistasis?

Gynandromorphy. Happens in a few species other than birds. Lots of interesting examples in invertebrates.

Not what is happening here though :+1:t4:
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“Paradox” is an illegitimate term used within the hobby to describe any of these weird anomaly animals. It has zero scientific value. Chimerism and mosaicism are the two most likely causes behind the “paradox” cases we see in the hobby. I have given pretty detailed accounts of each in a few different places here on the boards so I will not clutter up this thread by repeating myself :grin:
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Last season I had a pair where the female carried Pin and six of her seven offspring ended up being Pin. Two years ago I had an Albino Acid x BlkPastel Cypress het Albino pairing and all four offspring were Albino. all four were BlkPastel, all four were Cypress, and three of four were Acid. Odds are just theoretical numbers and only really apply to the much greater collective and can be utterly worthless on the individual level
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Different genetic level process

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Now… On to the gristle of the matter here. Just what the heck is going on

This one is a wee bit more complicated that our traditional ‘chimera’ or ‘mosaic’. I can think of a few possible situations that might give rise to a situation like this but, in the absence of molecular/genetic level testing that is not currently available for the species, I am just throwing Jell-o at the wall

  1. Suppressor/Hypersuppressor mutation to Pin - Short version is that the female is a BambooPin but there is another de-novo mutation that acts to suppress its expression of Pin in the animal. This mutation has high linkage affinity to Bamboo such that in almost every case when Bamboo is inherited the suppressor is also inherited
  2. Transposon - Short version is that Pin is the result of a transposon insertion. The female in question is genetically and gametically Bamboo but some of the ‘chimeric’ Pin tissue is proximal enough to the ovary that a rare fluke (re)activation of the transposon allowed for it to “jump” into a developing gamete
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So, if im understanding correctly:

  1. The female has the pin gene fully, but its being supressed by a mutation and only displaying where the paradox visual is, even though the moms genetics contain paradox fully.

  2. Some craziness happened which resulted in the gene being present in the ovaries creating a chance for pins to be created?

(Sorry if this seems like a super waterdled down version, i just want to be sure im understanding you correctly.)

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As an aside. Has the OP ever bred her before? Could this also be a case where some sperm was retained and the paradox has nothing to do with anything? (If she were bred to a pin in a previous season).

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