Butters is now on the road to recovery!

[trnreptiles]

For those of you not familiar with Butters, I’ve posted about her before in regards to this lump that she’s had in her jaw for probably around 8 months now…

We finally got a breakthrough on her condition, as we took her to the vet today for an operation. They cut directly into the tissue… and found that it was an abscess. A nasty one.

So they drained it and cleaned it out real good, and we went ahead and just did the culture sample. Once they get the results back from that we’ll know what sort of antibiotics she’ll need to help fight off this infection.

In the meantime, she was given a long-lasting antibiotic via injection by the vet, and we were instructed to replace the gauze in her jaw 1-2 times daily, with some antibiotics dropped onto it… hopefully this will help fight off the infection from the inside!

Her after the vet, when we first came home… she was quite swollen from the operation

Several hours later, after my boyfriend and I took a nice nap… the swelling has gone down quite a bit!

[eaglereptiles]

Good to hear she is on the mend. Though it’s a horrible experience for yourself and Butters, this thread could save someone’s snake one day so thank you. Not many people post the ugly and gritty part of caring for animals

[trnreptiles]

I think it’s good information to share, and I like being transparent about what goes on in my collection. Like you said, it could help someone else down the line!
@eaglereptiles

[akmorphs]

I hope Butters has a speedy recovery!

[nathan_e]

Yeah I strongly agree with being transparent with the good and the ugly. It’s how others will learn from one another. hopefully Butters makes a quick recovery!

[trnreptiles]

So, many months later and Butters’ abscess seems to have come back after being removed.

As I had found out from the previous material that was removed being tested, the abscess was not bacterial or infectious in any way.
She still eats aggressively, drinks water, and otherwise is acting like a perfectly healthy snake.

So… am I wrong for thinking that it wouldn’t be worth it to continue dumping money into trying to get this abscess removed again, and it potentially continuing to come back, considering the circumstances around it?

I really only ask because I had someone leave a bad review on my Google business page (mind you, I had never spoken to let alone done business with this person) and the situation with Butters was mentioned. Along with other claims that I don’t care for my snakes because I keep them in tubs, but that’s irrelevant.
That situation has since been dealt with and the person deleted their review. Weird, but oh well.

Here’s some recent pictures of her:

[saleengrinch]

@trnreptiles

So… am I wrong for thinking that it wouldn’t be worth it to continue dumping money into trying to get this abscess removed again, and it potentially continuing to come back, considering the circumstances around it?

I wouldn’t say you were. If he eats well and it doesn’t affect quality of life. I wouldn’t worry about it. If it’s not bacterial or infected it may just keep coming back. Then is it really worth it when the snake is having to endure getting it removed repeatedly? I think if the snake isn’t suffering it’s up to use to use your best judgement!!!

@trnreptiles

Along with other claims that I don’t care for my snakes because I keep them in tubs, but that’s irrelevant.

You will continue to hear this if you rack your snakes. For the record I rack mine I just use bigger tubs for bigger snakes.

[trnreptiles]

Thank you for confirming my thoughts.
I hate that my self-confidence always takes a nosedive when I deal with those kinds of people, to the point where I start questioning my own sanity.

I’m just glad there’s more supportive people in this hobby to keep me going, I really appreciate it.

[saleengrinch]

@trnreptiles

I hate that my self-confidence always takes a nosedive when I deal with those kinds of people, to the point where I start questioning my own sanity.

I used to let it bother when people would say stuff about racking my snakes. But I work with my snakes everyday there well taken care of and healthy. I know it so that all I worry about. I just try to keep an open mind as well when someone is trying to help. I’ve learned a lot of what I know by being open to others opinion and listening. But in the end it’s you that care for your collection so have to do what works for you as well.

[ashleyraeanne]

I have seen her previous photos and something about it is bothering me. Did the vet put a drainage tube in after the surgery while it was healing? Even in humans drainage tubes are a must when it comes to removing abscesses and making sure they don’t come back. I would personally be afraid that it would rupture and lead to more issues, so if I had the money to treat it again I would. Maybe try finding a specialist in another state and see what they think about the situation.

[mblaney]

In mammals, the packing with gauze (that gets changed) to keep the abscess open while draining is somewhat of the equivalent of a literal drain, especially as the wound is on the ventral surface, so gravity can do the work. I think this would also apply to rapidly developing, liquid (pus) abscesses in reptiles. The only problem would be if the opening closed too quickly.

@trnreptiles

So… am I wrong for thinking that it wouldn’t be worth it to continue dumping money into trying to get this abscess removed again, and it potentially continuing to come back, considering the circumstances around it?

I’m admittedly blanking on the original cause of the abscess, but generally it’s either husbandry or trauma related. I would say that you are likely wrong in the sense that an untreated, true abscess is not going to be stable in the long term. Infection can become locally invasive or even result in sepsis.

You’ll know more specifically if you look at the results of the culture & sensitivity. Bacteria, fungi, parasites, and foreign bodies trapped internally can all be causes. I’m not an expert on reptile vet med, but I know a few things.

If the root cause of the abscess isn’t addressed, then the abscess is likely to occur. This happens a lot with dental disease in mammals, but I have no idea if that could be a culprit in snakes. (Probably not is my guess.) Another example of that would be an unhealed fracture.

Abscesses in reptiles are often really well encapsulated (like they form a sort of rind). One possible culprit, would be that the capsule was not completely removed (happens often in mammals too- that alone is not enough to consider your vet a bad vet or anything). If part of the capsule is left, and the surgical site closed up too early, then the abscess can easily reform. So, technically, you could say that the post-op local treatment was not complete before the healing by second intention occur too quickly, allowing the remaining fragments of the capsule to reform the abscess.

The abscess looks open though, so my guess is that the systemic (medication) treatment was not for long enough or wasn’t broad spectrum enough- the culture you had done should have helped pick the best medication though. The puffiness looks to me looks like there is some cellulitis, which is a more diffuse response infection j to
t

My touchscreen is acting up, apologies for weird typos. Going to post before I lose wholething

[trnreptiles]

They had it packed with gauze, but she dislodged the packing and by the time I found it the wound had already sealed itself… I’m honestly surprised it closed up so fast. I was checking on her at least once a day since I was meant to repack the gauze daily.

[trnreptiles]

I believe the original cause was due to her smacking her lower jaw into the side of her tub going after a rat, and that likely caused her to break some teeth.

She did have an X-ray done so we did rule out any fractures, so it’s not due to that.

Based on the info given, I’m going to guess it came back because she somehow dislodged her gauze and caused the hole to scab over and seal back up.

The issue isn’t really money, but rather transportation. My fiancé works nights, and the exotic vet is a 3 hour drive from us. He can’t get off work easily because Toyota sucks.
I can’t ask my mom either because she’s been having car troubles, and I don’t want to risk it especially since the weather here has been getting colder.

[halohelix]

Perhaps have your fiance and mom switch cars for a day or two if you take Butters back?

[trnreptiles]

As much as I’d like to, I already know my fiancé wouldn’t be willing to do that. He needs to have a reliable transportation to work and back.
Again, Toyota doesn’t let him get off days easily, even for emergencies. He can call in, but he has to use PTO and has to have emergency PTO days available.
They don’t do non-PTO days off.

He also wouldn’t trust my mom with his car anyways, which I can understand. It’s a newer 2020 Toyota Corolla, and it has full coverage, but my mom is a bit of a reckless driver sometimes.

Not to mention my mom SUCKS at managing her time, and last time I had her take me up there we were 10-15 minutes late to the appointment.

[trnreptiles]

An update! We took Butters in to a local vet again, and they referred us to the University of Illinois. So today we are making the trip there to have her checked out.

Hopefully we can finally get to the bottom of this… poor Butters has had this abscess for the past 2+ years now.

On the plus side, she did absorb her follicles and has been back on food for a couple weeks after being off food for 3 months or so.

I will give y’all updates on her as I receive them.

[trnreptiles]

Here’s our update! She does seem to unfortunately have an infection in her jaw bone. She is otherwise in really good condition besides her jaw.

Looking at the X-ray, you can see how one side of her mandible (top/left) is quite visible, while the other side (bottom/right) looks rather unclear and greyed out. This is where the suspected infection is.

We will have to schedule for a surgery day, but the plan is that they will remove all of the infected tissue and bone, and also send them in as biopsy samples to be looked at under a microscope. They have these antibiotic beads that they will put in the jaw, and it is a slow release antibiotic so should hopefully keep any infection out of the bone.

For now they have advised we keep injecting pain meds/anti-inflammatories for the time being.

—

I’m just really upset about this. I’ve kind of known what the issue was the entire time and what caused it, but NONE of the vets until now have actually taken my thoughts into consideration!! I feel so bad for my poor Butters!!

I took her in to a local vet as soon as it became an apparent issue back in late 2019, the first time they claimed it was scar tissue and tried to operate on her neck instead of her jaw since it at the time was swelled up.

Then I tried a different vet in Indianapolis a bit later that is board certified for exotic pets, they did X-rays and noticed the jaw looking odd and mentioned it to me — but didn’t recommend looking into it further. They did remove the abscess, but… it of course came back.

I was not able to pursue treatment again because she then went through egg laying, and then Covid hit….

Now that Covid calmed down a bit, I went back to the first vet a couple weeks ago to get it looked at again, and they looked at the X-rays from the other vet and then recommended I take her to the clinic in Illinois to have them take a closer look at that jaw area since they weren’t equipped to do it.

We come to today, and man the vet at the university was a breath of fresh air. He actually took my observations into consideration to come up with a probable diagnosis for her — and so that’s that. I’ll update this again once we figure out when we’ll be able to take her back in for the actual surgery and let ya’ll know how it goes!

[crownreptiles]

Oh gosh that sounds so frustrating to go through with all those vets poor Butters!

[ghoulishcresties]

I just want to say you’re Amazing for helping her and doing all of this!
I’ve seen a lot of people just put down their animals because of cost etc or they simply don’t care and get another.
You are truly an Amazing person and going above and beyond for that little lady, she’s lucky to have found such a compassionate human to live with

[trnreptiles]

@crownreptiles
It has been super frustrating for sure! I get they’re the professionals and all, but I’m the one who cares for my snakes and I’m not the average clueless pet owner they likely deal with on a regular basis. A breeder, even as a hobbyist, has to be way more in tune with their snakes to be successful at it!

@ghoulishcresties
I may have 44 snakes (and counting) but they’re all my babies and I’d do the same thing for any of them.
Their health and well-being has always been my priority, even if it costs me way more than what they’re worth. I’ve probably spent $2k-$3k already trying to get her fixed up, and the surgery is looking at around $800-$1000 or so. Luckily I have CareCredit and reliable extra sources of income to pay it off fairly quickly — but it’s real frustrating when most of these expenses hadn’t even uncovered or made any attempt to get to the root cause of the problem.