Ethics of Spiders and Spider Breeding

Adult scaleless animals of numerous species have been caught from the wild. While they undoubtedly have a fitness disadvantage, it is probably no more problematic than another morph Albino might have

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I have never heard of scaleless BPs being found in the wild. Some scaleless might do fine (like rat snakes since they aren’t completely scaleless and have belly scales). From what I am aware of, a scaleless BP hasn’t been found in the wild, and is the result of breeding scaleless heads together only. Same goes with silkies, as they need extremely specific care to survive in captivity, of which their native range would likely not support. Completely scaleless animals are ones that seem to have issues, whereas some that are only partially scaleless manage just fine. Rat snakes of various species are the only ones I can think of. They are more half scaleless since they have some amount of scales still.

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I did not say Scaleless balls, I said Scaleless of numerous species: Scaleless Nerodia, Scaleless death adder, Scaleless gopher snake, Scaleless Burm, Scaleless Crotalus, Scaleless hognose, Scaleless garter, Scaleless puff adder… All initially found in the wild, and some of which are from climates/biomes significantly more inimical than what balls find themselves in.

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I believe a user from this very forum found a scaless water snake while they were hiking and the animal had some decent size on him so it would indicate that the animal was doing somewhat well on it’s own considering its disadvantage.

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@ashleyraeanne actually scaleless species have been caught in the wild, consequently they can survive in the wild… but I would agree that they are more vulnerable to sharp and abrasive things.

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Personally, I would stay away from spiders until I can get the actual statistics of how common severe wobble is (I don’t even own a BP yet), and how much husbandry affects it. I do think that severe wobble (corkscrewing etc.) probably does affect their lives in a negative way, but minor wobble doesn’t.

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My only experience with spider is I bought a Super Pastel Vanilla, turned out to be killer bee and i saw him corkscrew around and it made me sad lol, so i sold him

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I have several spiders. They are beautiful and eat well. (researched, looked etc for about a year then jumped in) if I were to hold them up and dangle them, they might corkscrew but I don’t dangle and they all seem fine. (the spider video on Clint’s Reptiles was the final information that decided me to take the plunge)

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There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence pointing towards spiders typically not having severe wobble as long as they’re kept in a low stress environment and otherwise are given proper husbandry.

All of my spiders (I have around 11
individuals in my collection, including hatchlings I produced) typically don’t show wobbles at all. There’s a couple individuals that will show more of a wobble then they’re being held or during feeding, which of course is because both situations cause some degree of stress.
They otherwise do completely fine and act like any other ball python.

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Similarily I was influenced by GoHerping (his opinoin is the ethics of spiders and breeding them are wrong), however, I did watch Brian Barzck’s one, but I ultimately agree with Goherping.

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Hi @dracenhimitsu78 just so you know I have listened to both and ultimately it came down to my preference. I have done research I’ve found many people say the wobble isn’t huge then some people say they can barely eat because they can’t strike their food.

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yeah, that’s why i removed my message. It didn’t come across the way i meant it to

No problem! I understand your point of view.

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I was too, Go Herping was the first spider video I watched. I think Brian’s video was mostly drama. I would recommend Clint’s Reptiles, Olympus reptiles, and the one made by NERD to round out the different ideas. Balls to You also had interesting ideas and he is based in great Britain. I also took every chance I had to look at and hold spider ball pythons in person. It took me months to make up my mind about them.

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I have a big issue with both of those videos being used to sway someone’s opinion on the matter.

I have no issues with either Brian or Alex as people, but they both did terrible jobs putting their points across and sat at either end of the scale.

Brian should have sat down and thought about the video and done it in a completely different manner to his daily blog format. He brushed off issues like they barely exist and didn’t give the in depth knowledge he is more than capable of sharing. It was a click bate video rather than a actual educational one.

Alex should not have singled out a individual breeder solely for the YT revenue and went about trying to prove his point using his experience, with very very little actual experience under his belt. The animals he has all come from rehoming situations and are the absolute worst specimens to use as proof towards your point.

I would highly recommend watching other videos on the subject. As @xamier mentions, balls2u has a good video on the subject as do many other breeders.

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I would agree Brian’s video was sort of drama-ish

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I don’t want to rip on any Youtuber for showing poor judgement (especially when they were a literal child when making their video) so I’ll leave a resounding no comment on GoHerping…but I second Matt’s explanation videos on the subject (Olympus Reptiles.)

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I just see it like this, at the end of the day we get to decide whether we want to keep or breed spider and no one can tell us otherwise. This is why I find it ridiculous that in some parts of Europe they banned the sale of spider.

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I have read through most of this thread and there are so many redundant posts/arguments/rebuttals that I will not specifically address any one post or individual. Instead I will simply share my opinion. First, the fact that other animals with wobble aren’t the subject of as much controversy is likely due to the fact that many hobbyists are unaware of the existence of the issue in the other morphs. But once known I don’t believe anyone would champion either side for one gene and not all. So my statements here should be considered all encompassing to any morph that is known to have wobble. The severity of the defect or lack of, does not excuse the issue. That’s like saying someone has a mild case of Down Syndrome. I am sure we have all seen varying degrees of severity in people who have this syndrome. Some are high functioning and others are much more challenged. Nevertheless, they all have Down Syndrome. There is no a variation in the fact that an extra chromosome is present. It’s a fact.

How many people do you believe would knowingly reproduce if they knew beyond a doubt their offspring would have Down Syndrome but could not predict the level of severity. I’d expect that number to be relatively small subset of the population. But these are just snakes so no worries, right? They are still pretty and can be sold for money and who are we to tell anyone they can’t.

I have only had one gene that has been identified as a Wobble Gene. I received it as a gift and was not aware at the time of it being in the category of having neurological issues. I will not purchase any others in the category nor would I encourage anyone else to do so. To say they eat, poop, and live, is not exactly a beaming endorsement. The same can be said of a coma victim. People will justify it any way they want but the harsh truth is it is a defect. Anyone breeding any genes that are in the category are knowingly propagating the defect. Also, to say they are in no pain or discomfort is incredibly presumptuous. Their movement would suggest either an inability to control their movements, such as would be the case with Parkinson’s disease, or an inability to recognize their orientation, like a person experiencing Vertigo. I am too being presumptuous as my comparisons are using human conditions to compare a reptile neurological issue. But I will say this, I have been experiencing Vertigo on and off for about two months now and it is very disruptive, unsettling, and discouraging. I don’t like it and don’t want it. Further, I haven’t met a single person afflicted with Parkinson’s disease or other issue that results in involuntary ticks, tremors, or movements that is happy with their affliction. They are living with it and managing it, but I would suspect most wish it weren’t there. So to say these animals are fine is to ignore the evidence. The evidence being there is something wrong or abnormal. That is not debatable. Everyone on this thread has acknowledged that. And yes there are other genes that have issues. The question is why would anyone wish to continue to buy and/or breed animals that have something wrong or abnormal with them? For me, I am not comfortable with any of the answers that would defend the position to do so.

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That’s how it should be. You like Spiders keep them and breed them, you don’t no harm either.

The problem I see as @t_h_wyman mentioned is this. Don’t these people who say we should ban Spiders see the downside that can have on this hobby? Where does it stop if Spiders are banned? That opens the door to all the other morphs with issues and defects to also be banned.
I don’t see how the people who support a Spider ban don’t understand that.
I’m sorry but if you keep reptiles, and enjoy to do so, maybe you shouldn’t ask for government bans on certain morphs/species.
That is basically giving our rights away and opens the door to some day maybe having Ball Pythons banned.
Some state governments are already and have in the past banned certain species from being allowed to be kept/bred/sold. Most recently like Alabama and Reticulated Pythons.
Suggesting the ban of Spiders may be more than this hobby asks for. And honestly I see the whole Spider ban and argument being voiced by children like Alex at GoHerping who at the time of his video on the subject was only 18 and still living at his parents house.
So how am I supposed to take the thoughts of a child seriously, especially when they haven’t thought out the consequences of what that could potentially mean and do the the reptile hobby.
That’s the problem now in the time we live in. Anyone can make a video and people take it as absolute truth. Seriously makes me sick.

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