I am right over the 100 snake mark with hatchlings right now 
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My one problem with people saying âthey donât look like they are in painâ
is that we really canât tell I mean animals I.G donât show pain well. (I know this for a fact)
not saying they are downright WRONG but still.
Pain=stressâŠStress=wonât breed, wonât eat, respiratory infections, etc. Those of us whoâve been breeding ball pythons for 7-10-15+ years know what a stressed out animal looks and acts like.
How do so many Spiders live full lives if theyâre in pain and thereby under major stress?
Many of us have a large number of these animals whoâre living healthy uneventful lives. We have a much larger sample size and many more years of experience than most pet keepers have or will achieve. Itâs hard to refute the experience of the hobby at large, that they eat fantastically, and breed well often over decades of life.
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I agree, just because they canât say how they feel, doesnât mean you canât tell.
Our spider doesnât like it when his enclosure is changed, he shows his frustration and so we keep changes to a minimal.
I think it comes down to how well you know your snakes on a personal level and the experience youâve had with them.
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While I agree with you overall with the spider gene this is not true at all imo ball pythons are notoriously easy to breed they certainly will breed when they are stressed and when it isnât always good for them health wise. People get clutches all the time from there stressed and or unhealthy ball pythons. I think plenty of us who have done this long enough have had plenty of moments where we have cringed at the condition of a ball python that a âbreederâ has gotten to âsuccessfullyâ reproduce. I feel by using they wouldnât breed argument we just give the anti spider side more bullet points because imo itâs simply not true.
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Sure they will once or maybe even twice but nothing thatâs really stressed is going recover, breed, recover, breed, etc over and over again for a decade or two.
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Agree they would probably die eventually but I do believe even stressed and unhealthy they will do it longer than people realize. So I donât think we should use this to justify a pro spider view point.
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If we accept this premise (I am not saying I do or do not, just using this as a logic problem) then we also have to accept the opposite premise that the combination of our inability to tell and the animalâs tendency to âhideâ pain means that you also cannot use/rely on/perpetuate the argument of âBut they are in pain because only an animal in pain would act like that.â
Two sides of the same coin
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thatâs fair I see what youâre talking about, makes sense!
Hereâs our take:
We donât touch wobble-prone genes or Supers (or others with possible health issues.) This means we have a collection free of Spider, Champagne, Woma, HGW, or Sable, and we will not produce Super Spotnose/Black Pastel/Black Head etc.
Does this feel limiting at times?
In all honesty? A little. Itâs hard to not get a little fomo when a big breeder pushes out a new Champagne combo, or when we canât pair two SNs.
However, NOTHING is worth it to us to risk an animalâs wellbeing. As keepers, we see ourselves as their guardians and we take âplaying godâ with genetics and creating little lives as a sacred responsibility. It is a luxury to be able to sit at a keyboard and speculate whether or not they could feel this pain. We ask â if itâs even a possibility, why risk it just for something as superficial as aesthetics?
There is clearly something basally unsound with the Spider gene â if you have two animals that look the same, the end result should not be dead offspring. (Is this a 
hot take ? Maybe. But I quite literally have my degree in this.)
TLDR:
We have a responsibility to do right by our animals and their offspring, based on the best knowledge we have at any given point. We wonât tell anyone how they should run their collection, and we arenât trying to pick a fight. We can only say that never bring wobble-genes in has been right for us; itâs resulted in sleeping easier and appreciative customers.
Keep on Herping,
- Fawkes
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Indeed, this is a very hot take.
You should also add Chocolate, wookie, and cypress to your list. And despite spotnose in general not displaying wobble a close friend of my produced a single gene spotnose that has as much wobble as any bad spider does.
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I feel the same way. I donât have anything against anyone for keeping spiders, i just have no intention of doing so. I believe that spider bpâs even with wobble has a chance to liver a happy life, just like any other animal, but for me there are plenty other beautiful morphs out there that donât have wobble. And i am going to agree with @zooophagous here, I wouldnât buy an animal that has been intentionally bred knowing thereâs a defect. No hate against spiders or spider breeders, just my overall take on things.
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