I don’t want to rip on any Youtuber for showing poor judgement (especially when they were a literal child when making their video) so I’ll leave a resounding no comment on GoHerping…but I second Matt’s explanation videos on the subject (Olympus Reptiles.)
3 Likes
I just see it like this, at the end of the day we get to decide whether we want to keep or breed spider and no one can tell us otherwise. This is why I find it ridiculous that in some parts of Europe they banned the sale of spider.
4 Likes
I have read through most of this thread and there are so many redundant posts/arguments/rebuttals that I will not specifically address any one post or individual. Instead I will simply share my opinion. First, the fact that other animals with wobble aren’t the subject of as much controversy is likely due to the fact that many hobbyists are unaware of the existence of the issue in the other morphs. But once known I don’t believe anyone would champion either side for one gene and not all. So my statements here should be considered all encompassing to any morph that is known to have wobble. The severity of the defect or lack of, does not excuse the issue. That’s like saying someone has a mild case of Down Syndrome. I am sure we have all seen varying degrees of severity in people who have this syndrome. Some are high functioning and others are much more challenged. Nevertheless, they all have Down Syndrome. There is no a variation in the fact that an extra chromosome is present. It’s a fact.
How many people do you believe would knowingly reproduce if they knew beyond a doubt their offspring would have Down Syndrome but could not predict the level of severity. I’d expect that number to be relatively small subset of the population. But these are just snakes so no worries, right? They are still pretty and can be sold for money and who are we to tell anyone they can’t.
I have only had one gene that has been identified as a Wobble Gene. I received it as a gift and was not aware at the time of it being in the category of having neurological issues. I will not purchase any others in the category nor would I encourage anyone else to do so. To say they eat, poop, and live, is not exactly a beaming endorsement. The same can be said of a coma victim. People will justify it any way they want but the harsh truth is it is a defect. Anyone breeding any genes that are in the category are knowingly propagating the defect. Also, to say they are in no pain or discomfort is incredibly presumptuous. Their movement would suggest either an inability to control their movements, such as would be the case with Parkinson’s disease, or an inability to recognize their orientation, like a person experiencing Vertigo. I am too being presumptuous as my comparisons are using human conditions to compare a reptile neurological issue. But I will say this, I have been experiencing Vertigo on and off for about two months now and it is very disruptive, unsettling, and discouraging. I don’t like it and don’t want it. Further, I haven’t met a single person afflicted with Parkinson’s disease or other issue that results in involuntary ticks, tremors, or movements that is happy with their affliction. They are living with it and managing it, but I would suspect most wish it weren’t there. So to say these animals are fine is to ignore the evidence. The evidence being there is something wrong or abnormal. That is not debatable. Everyone on this thread has acknowledged that. And yes there are other genes that have issues. The question is why would anyone wish to continue to buy and/or breed animals that have something wrong or abnormal with them? For me, I am not comfortable with any of the answers that would defend the position to do so.
3 Likes
That’s how it should be. You like Spiders keep them and breed them, you don’t no harm either.
The problem I see as @t_h_wyman mentioned is this. Don’t these people who say we should ban Spiders see the downside that can have on this hobby? Where does it stop if Spiders are banned? That opens the door to all the other morphs with issues and defects to also be banned.
I don’t see how the people who support a Spider ban don’t understand that.
I’m sorry but if you keep reptiles, and enjoy to do so, maybe you shouldn’t ask for government bans on certain morphs/species.
That is basically giving our rights away and opens the door to some day maybe having Ball Pythons banned.
Some state governments are already and have in the past banned certain species from being allowed to be kept/bred/sold. Most recently like Alabama and Reticulated Pythons.
Suggesting the ban of Spiders may be more than this hobby asks for. And honestly I see the whole Spider ban and argument being voiced by children like Alex at GoHerping who at the time of his video on the subject was only 18 and still living at his parents house.
So how am I supposed to take the thoughts of a child seriously, especially when they haven’t thought out the consequences of what that could potentially mean and do the the reptile hobby.
That’s the problem now in the time we live in. Anyone can make a video and people take it as absolute truth. Seriously makes me sick.
4 Likes
Down syndrome affects someone’s ability to thrive without massive care by others. A slight wobble doesn’t.
6 Likes
It is always a mistake to ask the government to regulate anything. It is inefficient, and wastes enough of our money already.
13 Likes
It seems like a massive fallacy to compare the wobble to Parkinson’s. Parkinson’s is a terminal illness, as in, it causes death. The wobble clearly does not. Also, people with Parkinson’s will lose the ability to feed themselves, and the ability to move around unassisted. The wobble clearly does not do this. Also, unlike Parkinson’s and Down Syndrome, there is no evidence that the wobble affects cognition.
8 Likes
@graysnake I more view the wobble as an inner ear issue as it basically messes with balance. It doesn’t equate to Parkinson’s, Down Syndrome, or anything of the sort. The fact that you think it does proves you don’t know much about either illness/condition. Maybe it could be compared to Tourette Syndrome to some degree, but I have friends with said syndrome and if I were to say they were “suffering” they would probably get a bit upset as many embrace it (especially since they have minor ticks). Also, would you say said people with issues/ticks shouldn’t have kids to avoid a chance they could pass it on? Guess I shouldn’t have kids either since I have flat feet and they hurt on a regular basis, and they can be passed down 🤷🏼♀. There is no evidence to support snakes that have a wobble are in pain or suffering, if they were they would not thrive in captivity, or have the original animal being an adult from the wild. Sick, injured, stressed, or snakes experiencing pain like you describe would not eat or do much of anything before dying.
8 Likes
Why? Because for now it’s within our rights to do so.
And what you view as wrong is subjective, as myself and many others see nothing wrong with the Spider gene and other genes with similar issues.
You don’t like or want to breed them than don’t do so. That’s where the argument should end plain and simple.
7 Likes
Exactly. There are so many more things that are legal to do but should be more regulated yet some European governments decide to actually take the time to ban the selling of a morph when there are bigger fish to fry. Its like some people that choose to get their dogs ears clipped. Am I a fan of it? No, not at all but who am I to stop someone from doing so? I cant because it is completely within their rights to do so with the animal that they own.
Don’t have anything else to add to this sentence but just want to echo it and say that this is exactly how the debate should end. You want to breed spider? Kuddos to you. If not then that’s fine too.
9 Likes
I would like for people to argue that we shouldn’t breed pugs, bulldogs, or any dog that is brachycephalic/breed with serious issues and see how that goes over with wobble haters. I mean those dogs have obvious signs of suffering and they might live 8 years? Maybe longer if you put $$$$ into keeping them alive. Meanwhile my champagne boy will live 20 years easily, without a need for a single vet visit for anything serious.
7 Likes
Just a thought- does anyone know what biological changes the Spider gene causes? What is it that is the physical cause of the neuro signs? I don’t know much about reptile brains, but in mammals I’d expect something wrong developmentally in the central nervous system- maybe cerebellum (if reptiles have one? I think I remember they do??) or brain stem, especially cranial nerve VIII.
It sounds very similar to Enigma Syndrome in Enigma leopard geckos. Anyone know if they are related?
1 Like
I feel like you are talking about the UK here, I may be mistaken though, but I’d just like to clear something up.
The spider gene hasn’t been banned in the whole UK, but just at one individual expo. Breeders can still sell them privately or at any other expo, just not at the IHS show in Doncaster. This was a “choice” made by the expo management, not the government.
5 Likes
Ah thanks for the clarification Tom. I did however hear that one European country did ban it. If that just means at expos I’m not too sure or whether the organizers are the ones to have banned it and not the government I’m not exactly sure of. Will try to find where I read or watched that.
2 Likes
Activists of any sort are never sated. I understand that one UK expo organization has banned the sale of spiders at their events, but the activists won’t stop there. They will push until they crush the joy out of everyone who disagrees with them.
The kind of outcome that I believe we would see in the United States would be very different, and possibly worse. Once an industry here starts getting attention from regulators, and legislators they talk about bans but that’s not ultimately what they do. They will burden the industry with fees and licensing to weed out small businesses. The big guys will be fine paying these fees, but the smaller businesses and hobbyist sectors will struggle and fade.
It’s a scenario that isn’t quite upon us, but it’s lurking in the realm of possibilities. Keeping USARK funded is the best defense.
I think in terms of ethics, the hobby is doing a pretty good job already. Hearts are in the right place, culling the most severe, selling snakes with moderate wobble as “pet only” at a reduced price. I hate to say it but doing this can ultimately haunt the industry. Every screwball snake out there is a potential YouTube video. So what’s the solution? I’ve got ideas but I’m also aware of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
8 Likes
I think my issue with wobble morphs is just when it is not disclosed as a possibility to buyers who are just pet owners. I understand the implication of a perspective breeder not knowing about morphs with issues, in that they clearly have not done enough research to begin breeding if they don’t know about the potential of severe wobble or kinking/duckbilling…but when it comes to new pet owners buying snakes at expos I really think breeders should disclose wobble possibilities. I’ve never owned a wobble morph but I did pet sit a spider for 6 months with a moderate wobble and he did have difficulty with striking which stressed him out. I have experience with ball pythons but many new pet owners might get pretty discouraged or upset if their snake was having trouble like that. As long as the buyer is aware I think it’s up to the individual breeders but not telling pet owners is what I find potentially unethical. Then again it’s not like dog breeders tell people buying puppies which breeds have potentially debilitating genetic issues like pugs and bulldogs. I just think they should I guess. For the animal’s sake the new owner should be aware of the scope of their responsibilities. But idk it’s a bit if a grey area atm.
2 Likes
I think most breeders expect that you have done enough research to know what wobble is by that point. I know I would expect people to know that, since it is a pretty prevalent issue in the BP hobby. Maybe instead of getting upset at the breeder, get upset at the people not doing their research. Every animal that one plans to purchase should be thoroughly researched beforehand. If one doesn’t and runs into something they didn’t know after a knee jerk purchase, then I feel that falls on the buyer.
5 Likes
Breeding an animal with a know genetic defect or fundamental developmental problem is odd. The wobble hasn’t been successfully bred out so it can’t be health tested for wobble to only breed non wobble spiders.
I get that and to an extent I agree it is on the buyer but people who are pet owners that are not in the hobby but have purchased multiple books on ball python care and watched/read care guides might never come across anything about wobble morphs. They could have everything perfect for care and go to an expo and pick their favorite looking ball python with no idea. I know GoHerping gets plenty wrong but he and other reptile rescues have many spiders given to them for a reason I would imagine. But idk I understand the breeders POV as well in that it is on the buyers to be knowledgable. But genetic morph issues aren’t as well known among hobbyist pet owners.
2 Likes
Speaking as a geneticist, this is a flawed argument. Every pregnancy has the potential to generate a Down Syndrome child (the rate is ~1 in 700 births) and yet every year around four million babies are born in the US. So it is very evident that people are more than willing to continue having babies despite knowing there is a very real chance that they could produce a Down Syndrome baby.
A much closer comparison would have been to Parkinson’s, which has a broader spectrum of presentation across the disease with some cases being very mild and some being life-alteringly catastrophic. But, as was noted, it is also a flawed comparison because Parkinson’s is progressive and terminal.
Attempting to equate the issues with Spider (and associated morphs) to any human disease is ridiculous because it is nothing more than an anthropomorphizing tactic designed to elicit contentious negative feelings. At that point the idea of a rational conversation goes out the window because it is no longer about having a civilized argument about opposing sides of a point, but is instead about hurt/angry/bad/feelings
.
.
.
If that is truly how you feel, then your collection should not have a single mutation in it because every morph is, fundamentally, a genetic abnormality. Additionally, you should not own a dog as they are all just abnormal wolves.
.
.
.
Every pure-breed dog has some collection of negative/deleterious genes associated with it. German shepherds are highly prone to hip dysplasia. ACDs are prone to progressive retinal atrophy. Dalmatians are prone to deafness. And of course [rational] people are not going to call for the wholesale banning of all dogs because of the defects that are associated with them (that is for froot loops like PETA/H$U$). But for some reason there are a sizable number of people in the reptile hobby that embrace those PETA-derived arguments and completely ignore the damage they are going to cause the hobby by doing so.
.
.
.
We do not know. The ball python genome has not been annotated and the exact gene responsible for the Spider mutation is completely unknown. It is likely a gene that is in somewhat associated with neural crest development, but that could be anything from a neuron growth factor to a melanocyte maturation factor or any of a few hundred others in between.
.
.
.
As I stated above: Every single morph in this hobby is a known genetic defect. So unless you are only keeping WT specimens, welcome to the odd club
.
.
.
Wobble cannot be “bred out”. It is a secondary phenotype of the genetic mutation. As long as the main phenotype is there, wobble will be too. They are not two separate entities
.
.
.
In some respects, I agree with you. However, if you have done even a cursory level of research into morphs with ball pythons I find it nearly impossible to believe you could be ignorant of the known association of wobble with Spider. Every forum and every ball group on FB and every reptile oriented PetTuber have discussed it ad nauseam.
14 Likes