First Clutch - Extra Gene/s?

So I had my first ball python clutch this year. The pairing was the following, and this was the first clutch for both:

Sire - Male maker Coral Glow, Pastel(possible Super Pastel), Black Pastel, Mystic, Special. (A Black Pewter (Mojave/Special) came out of the same clutch as him)

Dame - Vanilla Spider Pied

A clutch photo can be seen below:

Clutch Photo

From what I can tell all the offspring are female(thus no Coral Glows) and contain pastel, so I think that proves the male to be super pastel. However, as we can only see the head of the female, then maybe she is pastel as well.

I would be grateful if you guys could help identify the two below, as I suspect one of the parents is also carrying GHI as well:

Babies

The top three pictures of the babies are pre first shed.

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Right off the bat, I’m not seeing anything that looks black pastel in any of those offspring. Maybe bad luck?
I also don’t see anything pointing to GHI. Like the usual faded smudges in the alien heads and all

My guesses are the more blushed out one is super pastel mystic and the other is pastel mystic.
I’m not great at IDing vanilla yet as it can be so subtle sometimes… But that’s also a possibility for them.

I would still also check the sexes. Just because a cg is labeled as a male maker doesn’t mean they don’t toss a female cg 5-10% of the time. I wouldn’t be surprised if the opposite is true.

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I second @armiyana about sexing them, I have had a lot of coral glow/banana clutches and a few have not followed the “rules” when it comes to gender!:rofl: I do think the male is a super pastel. I was a little confused when you said:

I thought a black pewter was a (black pastel, pastel?)
Either way I see mystic and either super pastel or pastel, vanilla in that super reduced one, not sure about ghi.

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I agree that the bottom one could be a super pastel vanilla mystic. It’s the middle one mainly that got me thinking GHI(or something else) is in the clutch somewhere, as I’ve not seen any Pastel(and or Vanilla) Mystics with that amount of reduced alien head patterning/dark blanking pattern.

This one is probably one of the closest I’ve seen to it, which is listed as GHI:

With regards to the Dad, he was listed as I’ve said (Coral Glow, Pastel(possible Super Pastel), Black Pastel, Mystic, Special) and the picture of him isn’t the latest. I’ll get one later today and post it. Apart from him, and the Black Pewter (Mystic Special), none of the rest of the clutch could be easily identifiable as they were Mystic Mojave’s(I have one of his sisters).

All the babies were popped and I couldn’t see any Hemipenes.

I also don’t see any Black Pastel’s in the clutch.

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Just to clear things up a bit.

I think this is what’s confusing us most… Because by wording it like that, it looks like you’re saying that Black Pewter=Mystic Special
when it’s actually
Black Pewter = Black pastel, Pastel
Mystic Crystal = Mystic, Special
This is why I like to type out genes individually instead of using confusing combo names.

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So there was a Black Pastel Pastel Mojave or Special that came out of the same clutch as him.

His Mum was a Pastel Crystal(Mojave Special).

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Here are some more picture of the Dad taken today(It’s quite cloudy today, so not the best light):

His sister that I have has the same Black Stripping along the tail as .him(but more grey and dulled out).

Also, the Black Pastel Pastel(Black Pewter) was Mojave and female.

Here are pictures of the Pastel Spider Special or Mystic 100% het Pied’s (as the very least):


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Nice spider morph! Love how reduced the last part of the body and tail is, especially on the dorsal! Very nice head and color too!

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Anyone else think there is something else going on with this clutch?

Few more pictures of the bumblebee’s. There is a clear colour difference, so I suspect the lighter one is vanilla.

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Those are some :fire: snakes! Call me old, (and not having a trained eye for identifying morphs) but I am having a hard time with seeing one being lighter than the other. I don’t doubt that I’m wrong. Congratulations on your first clutch!

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I’m with @gina5678 on this one. I really can’t tell a difference between them either. But they are very very nice! :100::+1:

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I see the difference (shame on you two @caron @gina5678 i am color blind and can tell the difference :rofl:) and there is definitely the possibility for vanilla but I think it may just the variation that Pastel has. Some are just naturally brighter. Then again don’t ask me I don’t know my morphs well enough to say one way or the other

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(colour nerd here) actually being colourblind may give you an advantage in being able to tell the value (lightness or darkness) of something! Desaturating an image is a classic way to get a better read on the value structure. You’ve got a leg up. :wink:

That said, I do also see a subtle but present difference in values between those two snakes in the image. But colour is literally my dayjob, so I have a leg up too!

Wouldn’t be able to tell you anything about the genetics, and if I’m honest I’d have to see the snakes in person to know whether the value difference was just a matter of one being closer to a light source than the other, it’s that subtle. Lovely animals, either way.

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Here’s another picture that I think shows the colour difference better:

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How interesting! Thanks for the lesson on color blindness! Does that apply to all types of color blindness or just certain ones?

I definitely see a pretty decent color difference especially midsection down. I still am not sure about vanilla or any extra genes.

Do @armiyana @banereptiles @ballornothing @inspirationexotics any of you guys have an idea?

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I would honestly just say polymorphic traits because one has less pattern than the other.
Or just pastel being it’s weird low or high expression self.

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Now it’s shame on you Logan for making fun of @gina5678 and me! :joy:

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I agree with @armiyana, I think polymorphism. I see the slight color difference but their patterns and headstamps are darn near identical. I think they’re both the exact same set of genes, and my guess would be pastel vanilla spider for both.

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I think the head is a lot more washed out, and the dorsal black stripe has more fading in it in that one. I also though have to agree that they are both carrying the same genes, because the overall color looks too similar to me to be a different morph. I do think they are pastel, vanilla, spider. So bright! :star_struck:

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