Green Ghost - Request to add Gene

[hydrasden]

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Gene Request Form

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Facts

Species:
Ball python

Name of Gene:
Green Ghost

First produced by whom:
I’m not sure

Year:
I’m not sure, but I’ve got a female that is about 6-7, so likely it’s been around for a minute.

Genetics Type (Incdom/Codom/Recessive/Polygenic/etc):
Recessive

In complex with other genes?:
Not that I’m aware of.

Other names/aliases for it?:
Not that I’m aware of.

Description:
In the specimens I have, the green is the first thing you notice. Then the nice black markings, they contrast nicely, especially since the color has a kind of “faded” look that I associate with hypomelanistic. They tend to fade more towards the belly. There’s definitely a degree of blushing in the black markings. The head also has a slight blush. Otherwise, mine don’t have any particular head stamp. Even the het I have seems to be greener than average but not nearly as “hypo” looking. It may be useful for people with a keener eye to elaborate more.

Appearance:
Green and black, but faded, “hypo”.

Proven:
I haven’t met many people with them but to my knowledge it’s a proven, albeit not as popular, recessive morph that has been around for at least a decade or so. I have bought 3 total from 2 different sources, both in Florida. Most people familiar with regular hypo that I’ve spoken to have at least heard of green ghost.

Unique:
It’s definitely not new, which is why I’m surprised it’s not on MorphMarket already.

Related Genes:
None are compatible that I know of. Hypo would be the closest related thing, I suppose, since this is just another hypo gene.

Problems:
None that I’ve noticed.

Other History:
I have none, but I will attempt to look some stuff up, as well as go back and see who produced the pair I bought earlier this year. That may help.

Disagreement or Controversy:
None that I’m aware of.

References here on the community:
I usually see green ghost brought up when people are questioning which types of hypo are compatible with which. I’ve seen it here once or twice and numerous times in Facebook.

At least one link to community discussion (ie forums) to demonstrate community acceptance:

How many hypo lines are there?

Hypo refers to the term “Hypomelanistic” which means “a less than normal amount of melanin” and describes a condition of reduced pigmentation. The mutation manifests itself as a lighter colored, “ghostly” looking animal - hence the original slang “ghost”. Historically there have been Hypos, Orange Ghosts, Blue Ghost, Green Ghost, and so on. They are all technically “hypomelanistic”. Some of these lines (such as the generic hypo and orange ghost) have proven compatible but were derived from diff…

Link to WOBP if exists:
https://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/green-ghost/
https://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/green-ghost-pastel/
https://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/genetic-stripe-green-ghost/

Please attach 1-3 photos you have rights to which you are granting to be used on MorphMarket.

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Other(if something not listed above, please use this section to explain what and why you would like changed):
The photos are of my male GHI green ghost and my female regular green ghost. I apologize for not having a proper photo setup.
The male I believe was produced by Wayne Grady. I don’t know about the female, since I purchased her years ago from a reptile shop.
It may be worth noting that babies seem to have MUCH more yellow in them. It apparently fades.

[t_h_wyman]

“Green Ghost” is just another lineage of the Orange/Butterscotch/Peach Ghost group. MM does not have individual categories for each of these, they just get lumped under the OG/Hypo group

[hydrasden]

It looks quite different than regular ghost or orange ghost and I’ve been told for years it’s not compatible, thus a separate gene. Whether that’s true or not I don’t know, but I’ve never been told once that they are compatible, always the opposite. Like albino and lavender albino. Both types of albino, but different genes.

Also, I can go to the list of genes and click orange ghost. So it isn’t lumped together with regular hypo, at least not from what I can see. Why would green ghost not have it’s own section then?

[saleengrinch]

@hydrasden

It looks quite different than regular ghost or orange ghost and I’ve been told for years it’s not compatible,

It’s been shown to allelic to orange ghost and from my understanding is just another line of it. It doesn’t have its own section because it is one of the dozen of allelic orange ghost lines. If we list every line of proven alleic lines of genes it would be quite overwhelming and confusing. For the good of the hobby we should be calling proven lines the same thing.

[hydrasden]

So you are saying it’s a separate gene, but allelic? When was this proven? Because I’ve been told over and over again for the better part of a decade that they’re not compatible by a multitude of people. I was told breeding the two together was a waste. I was trying to prove if it is or not myself but my orange ghost and green ghost refused to lock (despite locking fine with other snakes), so I won’t be able to test it until next year if he will lock with my het green ghost girl.
Why does orange ghost have it’s own category? From my understanding, it’s the same gene as regular hypo, just a line bred to be more orange.

[saleengrinch]

@hydrasden

So you are saying it’s a separate gene, but allelic?

No I’m saying it’s just another line of orange ghost sorry that may of sounded a bit confusing.

[saleengrinch]

@hydrasden

Why does orange ghost have it’s own category? From my understanding, it’s the same gene as regular hypo, just a line bred to be more orange.

It’s a generic name for all the lines of orange ghost like green ghost or butterscotch or one of the many other lines. Orange ghost is used because it’s the most recognized name but in truth the are all the exact same gene.

[hydrasden]

The person that produced mine is telling me they’re not compatible and that’s why he got out of them. He does not prefer to post on forums but said he’d answer messages if people have questions about them. So again I’m being told it isn’t… I really wish mine would have bred so I would have my own answers.

My orange ghost looks very different than my green ghost

[t_h_wyman]

@hydrasden

Why does orange ghost have it’s own category? From my understanding, it’s the same gene as regular hypo, just a line bred to be more orange

As Shaun notes, they are all the same thing. As for whether Orange Ghost is actually “more orange”… All these different Hypo lines were established back in the hey-day of the morph craze when everyone was grabbing anything and everything that looked different and trying to make it their own. So someone decided that they Hypo “bush baby” they picked was more orange while someone else decided theirs was more yellow while someone else decided theirs was more butterscotch while someone else decided theirs was more peach while someone else decided theirs was more green while someone else decided they were just going to slap their name on theirs while someone else decided…

Reality is that they were most likely all being bred by the exporter from the same damn animals and were all probably siblings/half-siblings. This is why I use the generic catch all of “Hypo” for them, because I refuse to play the silly game when we know they are all the same

[hydrasden]

That sounds like an assumption. There most certainly can be multiple genes for hypomelanistic (desert ghost?), just like there are multiple albino genes. I understand that many are compatible. It’s been proven repeatedly that lines such as orange ghost is compatible with regular hypo. However, again, I’ve had people who have worked with them tell me over and over again that this particular one isn’t. I’m only just now, for the first time in 7 years, being told that it may be. Do we know who proved them compatible? Because I’ve got someone who worked with them for a years telling me they’re not. I’m not really sure why we won’t add it based on an assumption, even though most people believe it’s not and it visually is different enough that you can look at them and tell them apart.
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But after almost a decade of being told one thing by… Everyone I asked, I’m inclined to believe it isn’t unless I see a clutch proving otherwise, or something like that.

[saleengrinch]

@hydrasden

That sounds like an assumption

What makes what someone else told you not an assumption as well? What evidence do you have to prove it is indeed different? I’m all for adding genes that are indeed separate genes. But the consensus in the hobby is that the are all lines of the same hypo gene and generically labeled orange ghost.

[hydrasden]

To an extent I suppose my view is an assumption as well, but after years of being told by probably over a dozen people that they’re not compatible, as well as communicating with at least one person who’s personally worked with them (possibly more, but I don’t remember the names of all the people that talked to me about it over the years) and he tells me the same thing… It’s not like I just pulled it out of the blue 🤷 I’m not just saying “it’s compatible because most other hypo is compatible.” That forgets unrelated versions such as desert ghost.
That’s why I’m so firm on it. Because I’ve had many people tell me one thing, and only two now, after years, contradict it. Again, could be wrong. But many people, including people who have worked with the gene, telling me one thing is enough to at least put weight behind my assumption. I do plan to try to prove it myself. I have been trying for two years, but unfortunately my male and female don’t appreciate each other and I’ll have to wait until I can use my other girl next year. And hope he likes her Because honestly for years I believed that other people were wrong and they may be compatible. However as I paired them, the differences in appearance made me wonder if everyone else was right. I produced eggs this year (het gg x gg) and if I put them on MorphMarket , I want to put the babies under the correct category. They are absolutely not orange ghost and they will be visually different than regular ghost. Possibly even genetically different. So I would not feel comfortable putting them under ghost. Hence, this topic.

[saleengrinch]

@hydrasden

To an extent I suppose my view is an assumption as well, but after years of being told by probably over a dozen people that they’re not compatible

I’m not trying to discourage you but you will find way more than 12 people that will tell you it is the same thing. Here at MorphMarket we are trying to cut down on confusion and not acknowledging rehashes of old genes as new genes. So if your truly passionate that your line is different prove it out! Proving it out and documenting it out is the way you will get the gene considered a separate hypo gene.

[biologicalcanvas]

“Hypomelanism” means “less than normal melanin”. Desert Ghost / Enhancer does have “less than normal melanin” but they’re unique in that it is reduced primarily in the body color undertones, leaving the pattern melanin contrast intact while also minimizing melanin leakage into adulthood. The existing lines of ghost “hypos” behave differently via reducing melanin in the pattern and body color with less resistance to leakage over time. They legitimately fall into different categories.

I know nothing of the various ghost lines and their proven compatibility but I think there should be one category of “ghost” with all the various lines of compatible single gene mutations with legitimately different bloodlines of ghost in a sub-category under that. You could click on “ghost” to see all the bloodlines of ghost in one search, or individually go to different bloodlines if desired separately. If they’re proven to be a different single gene mutation it should have its own category IMO.

[hydrasden]

I understand cutting down the confusion. I think that’s a good thing. I guess I’ll have to try again next year and prove it one way or another. This is the crazy thing about green ghost. No one can ever prove to me one way or another, it’s just a lot of he said she said. This is why I wanted to prove it myself, it just didn’t work out this year or last. Eventually I will be able to though. After being told so many times it’s not, I just went with it not being compatible to be safe (when it comes to what I plan to label my babies as). And I’m not going to label them the same as hypo until I’m positive.

[hydrasden]

I think that would not be a bad idea. A way to not clutter the main gene page, but include the proven compatible versions in case anyone wants something specific.

[saleengrinch]

@hydrasden

I guess I’ll have to try again next year and prove it one way or another.

Keep us posted I would be interested in seeing if you can hash it out.

[hydrasden]

Yes sir. I don’t mean to be long-winded in my other posts, that’s just how I talk, I’m sorry.

[saleengrinch]

Nothing to apologize for! And easy with that sir talk lol.

[projectpython]

About 10 years ago I bought an adult male breeder BP from one of the old-timers in the industry. It was labeled as a “Ghost Mojave” and there was absolutely no reason to doubt that it those were the genetics. After I made the purchase, I went back to the guy’s table and asked him which line of ghost the animal was, and he said “orange.” I filed that information away but didn’t think much of it.

That male must have sired a dozen clutches for me over the years. I still have a few of the offspring and they are breeding adults now. The ones that I sold were sold as “Mojave het Ghost,” or “het Ghost,” or whatever. Nobody had a problem with it and in fact, nobody ever asked me the same question that I asked when I purchased the original male. I figured that everyone already knew that the lines were compatible.

Last year I started getting some grief from people over this. People would ask me what line of ghost my animal was. When I posted them for sale, I used the MM gene category “Ghost.” But when someone asked me the question, I always said “Orange Ghost” along with the information that it was what the seller told me and that I didn’t have any way to actually verify it…or know of a way that it even could be verified.

Seems to me that there are some folks out there that believe these are different genes. But nowadays I use the “Orange Ghost” gene category on MM when posting my animals because 1) I have never brought in another Ghost animal to my collection, and 2) I don’t want to be hassled further about this.

Personally I would have no problem buying a Ghost/Hypo from someone else and bringing it into my collection. I highly doubt that the genes would end up being incompatible.