Help Identify Hatchlings

[7snakes]

Hi guys, so I know a lot of people are asking for help identifying hatchlings right now, but I’ve got some strange and unexpected things going on in several clutches this year… along with a few combos that I’ve never produced before. So I’ll start with the combos before I get to the weird stuff, alright?

The pairing for these babies was Leopard Spider het Pied x Enchi het Pied:

I think the two on the left are Stingerbees (Enchi Spiders), but I’m not sure about the one on the right. Maybe it’s just a Spider?

Now this next group was from a Cinnamon het Pied (the het hasn’t been proven yet on her). She’s been locking with an Enchi Pied for the last two years, but I briefly paired her with a Leopard het Pied (proven het) back in 2018 and I think she decided his genes were better. No Enchis in the clutch, just two normals and these guys:

I think the two on the left are Cinnamon Leopards and the one on the right is just a Cinnamon, but I’d love some input from others who’ve produced the combo before. Not too worried about which ones are het for Pied and which aren’t.

Now on to the weird stuff.

What is this? Besides Leopard, because I think there’s definitely something else going on here. Maybe trick, het paint, or shatter? Idk.

The pairing that produced this girl was Leopard Spider het Pied x Pastel? het Pied. The question mark is because I’m not entirely sure what she is either. Pics of the parents:

The female was sold to me as an Enchi het Pied. I disproved that last year by pairing her with an Enchi Pied. I got no Super Enchis and a few babies that looked like Pastel Enchis.

That aside, she’s always some oddly busy looking babies and I’ve always suspected something else was at play with her. Never could put my finger on it.

Anyway, here’s more of the clutch. There was one other leopard. It’s not as dark or as crazy, but it is still vary busy. This one also has good train tracks while the other doesn’t.

I also got this guy, who looks pretty normal for a Pied until you notice a splotch of pastel on one side.

I think that splotch of pastel is judging us. Also kinda wondering if he has Leopard. Time will tell, as I plan on keeping and breeding him.

Then we have these three:

The one on the left is far brighter and busier than the other two, so maybe he has pastel? He doesn’t look like a typical pastel leopard spider, but nothing this girl puts out looks typical.

There was also a single gene spider in the clutch, nothing too special about her, but she is cute.

So what do y’all think? I’m open to all kinds of opinions at this point. I thought breeding this girl would help me figure out what she is, but after two clutches I’m more perplexed than ever!

[vicen86]

I´m new breeder and i can´t help you with identify, however nice clutches.

[eaglereptiles]

As always, take my guess mildly and wait for others.

Enchi het pied X Leopard Spider het pied

1. Enchi Spider
2. Spider
3. Spider

Cinnamon het pied X (I believe) Leopard het pied.

• Something else. The pattern on all of them is wild compared to what you would expect from either a Cinnamon Enchi or Cinnamon Leopard. I’m guessing either Mojave or Black Pastel are it one of the parents.

Can we see the potential pairings?

1. Mojave Leopard Cinnamon
2. Mojave Cinnamon
3. Mojave Leopard Cinnamon
4. Leopard Mojave

[jrc_retics]

First pair left to right:
Enchi Spider
Enchi Spider
Spider

Second pair left to right:
Cinnamon Leopard
Cinnamon Mojave? Looks a lot different than the Cinny Leo’s I’ve seen, but there is a lot of variation in Cinnamon.
Cinnamon Mojave?
I agree with Tom, I think Mojave is at play but don’t see Black pastel.

The mystery Leopard I have no idea, from that pairing it doesn’t look like any of the genes other than Leopard that are in the parents, but I agree something else in going on.

The Pied I think is a crazy cool example of just a normal Pied. I don’t think it has the pattern or color of Pastel overall, or Leopard.
Here is a Pastel Pied for comparison.

For the last trio from left to right:
Leo Spider
I think just a Spider
Leo Spider.

Of course those are just my guesses, comparing to hatchlings I’ve seen and produced.
@t_h_wyman should be able to see the genes you have in question and give a more educated guess.

[osbornereptiles]

I don’t see any Leopard in the Cinnies. Leopard would increase the spots, usually have random banding over the dorsal, and widen whatever striping there may be on the dorsal. They look like typical Cinny het Pieds especially with the straight dorsal striping as the het Pied marker. Here is another example of a Cinny het pied to compare.

[eaglereptiles]

That is why we love having you here Brandon

So this shattered pattern is the het pied showing through?

If so, I need to redo my guesses

[jrc_retics]

@eaglereptiles

So this shattered pattern is the het pied showing through?

If so, I need to redo my guesses

…Yeah me too lol. I’d that’s the case those would all just be Cinnamon het Pieds from that comparison.
I wasn’t aware the het Pied influenced the Cinnamon gene like that. I’ve never produced Cinny in Pieds so this is good information for sure.

[t_h_wyman]

@7snakes

I think the two on the left are Stingerbees (Enchi Spiders), but I’m not sure about the one on the right. Maybe it’s just a Spider?

Stinger, Spider, Spider to my eye
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@7snakes

I think the two on the left are Cinnamon Leopards and the one on the right is just a Cinnamon

No Leo in those animals. All three are Cinny het Pied
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@7snakes

What is this? Besides Leopard

That is just a Leopard.
.
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@7snakes

looks pretty normal for a Pied until you notice a splotch of pastel on one side

Just a “paradox” mark, likely chimeric in origin
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@7snakes

The one on the left is far brighter and busier than the other two, so maybe he has pastel?

No Pastel there. I think you are just seeing normal variation in expression of colour/brightness

[trails_ahead]

I can only chime in on the cinnamons, but my cinnamon het pied also has the dorsal stripe and ‘alien scribbles’

[7snakes]

Thanks for your input, everyone! Here are the potential pairings for the Cinnamon… guess I’m gonna call her poss het Pied now. If the striping is just a het Pied marker then I doubt the mother has it, she has much less striping than these babies. Here’s Mom:

Male #1, the Leopard het Pied from 2018

Male #2, the Enchi Pied she’s been with for the past two years.

She’s never been with any mojave or black pastel males. I raised her from a hatchling, these are the only two males I’ve seen her lock with. Admittedly I did also pair her with a Pied male back in 2018, but never saw a lock, so I just assumed he couldn’t have fathered anything.

[7snakes]

And just to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting that the Pied is a Pastel Pied. I think the paradoxing is a nice touch though, and it makes him worth keeping around and breeding.

As far as the presence or absence of leopard in the cinnamons… I have a hard time telling the difference between the effect leopard has on cinnamon and the effect the het Pied has on them. Both seem to increase the dorsal striping and change the pattern to some extent, though I’ve got to admit I’d like to see a little more orange if they did have leopard in them.

It may have just been wishful thinking on my part. Without any enchi or leopard in the clutch I have no way of knowing which male fathered it. Maybe it was the Enchi Pied male and I just missed the odds on the Enchi.

[osbornereptiles]

I have a pic of a leopard Cinny het pied somewhere. It was one I produced last season, but I’ll have to do some searching.

[7snakes]

Thanks, I’d appreciate it!