Help with unexpected clutch result identification and possible deformaty?

Greetings everyone!

I am looking for a little help from the community, this is our first year breeding and 2nd clutch. I am having a little trouble identifying what hatched and one that I have no clue what it could be, maybe another gene at play I’m not aware of? I’ll include pics of the pairing also to see if anyone sees anything else in them.

The pairing was a banana black pastel x enchi pinstripe, unless there is something else at play I don’t see. Looking at all sorts of different pics on here could there maybe be yellow belly or fire in the banana black pastel? thats about the closest thing I could find without having the experience.

Also, with hatchling 5 (the one I have no idea what it could possibly be, maybe banana black pastel enchi pinstripe? I couldn’t find any pics of what it would look like on here) it also has an extremely small head, is that common to come across or could there be something wrong with him I should be aware of?

Hatchling 1

Hatchling 2

Hatchling 3

Hatchling 4

Hatchling 5

Hatchling 6

Dad

Mom

Thanks for the help in advance, you guys are awesome for newbies to learn from!

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Yeah #5 does look a little under formed. I hope it survives…little surprised it wasn’t stillborn really so that’s at least a good sign but yeah that doesn’t look quite right. Im assuming it has to at least have pinstripe enchi? Very strange. I hope it’s viable but we will need the experts to weigh in.

Hatchling 1 what a jewel! That’s amazing. Banana pin…enchi?? Just way more orange than I would have expected. Gorgeous.

2 normal
3 black pastel banana
4 black pastel pin

6 I have no clue either…judging by the parents perhaps another gene hiding in the enchi pin?

I usually don’t even guess on these but I need to start, get as many reps in as I can before I get my first clutches next year.

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And idk on number 5 if it being under formed contributes to being so hard to ID or if there is another gene at work there too.

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@thecrawdfather thanks for the input, that’s what I was thinking on 3 and 4. For 1 I was thinking either banana pin enchi possibly black pastel in it just because the orange does pop so much kinda like the black pastel banana does but wasn’t for sure (beginner guess lol) but 2 I was thinking black pastel with how dark it is comparing to other pics on here
they are also all in their shed right now so not quite as vibrant as when they hatched

As I said I’m far from the expert but I typically expect the black pastel to make the purples on the banana stand out but I wouldn’t expect it to do the same with that orange. But I’ll see what some others have to say I have no experience with these morphs.

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@thecrawdfather I’m not to sure, still nice to discuss it and bounce thoughts off each other though, we will see what the real experts think and school us both lol.
also good luck next year with your first breeding, when our first clutch hatched last month I don’t think I left the reptile room for 2 days watching through the incubator door lol even put my gopro in and recorded some of it.
its a rush and will make your wait all worth it!

just incase you want to see some of the video lol

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Just my guesses :blush:

First off, I think you have YB (or a similar gene) in one of the parents.

1 - YB Banana Enchi Pinstripe
2 - Normal
3 - Banana Black Pastel
4 - Black Pastel Pinstripe
5 - Enchi YB Pinstripe
6 - Yellowbelly Black Pastel

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@eaglereptiles thanks for your input. Do you know if there’s a trait I can look for in the parents to try verifying yellow belly?

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Your snakes look underdeveloped and small. This is why there heads look so small. What were your incubation temps? Also did you cut these eggs? To me they look like they came out way early. Snakes that don’t fully develop in the egg and/or inconsistent incubation temps will make wild colors and patterns. Were you opening the incubator and egg tubs a lot? Every time you open them you lose heat, when you have a lot of tempature spikes and swings it can affect there development. Also me personally I’m not seeing any yellow belly influence. And judging by the pictures of the hatchlings and parents I would say no to a black eyed Lucy complex gene as well. Keep a close eye on these guys I hope they make it for you.

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@thecrawdfather I believe number one is black pastel enchi pinstripe banana. Black pastel and enchi are alleic so it would be an als.

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I believed YB because some of the oddities that have popped up, but I would take Shaun’s opinion over my own.

1 Just wouldn’t be that bright at all with the parents listed, but as Shaun noted, and something that I failed to think of, Black Pastel and Enchi will give you a “acts like super”.

5 looks to have crazy bright sides, brighter than you would expect, but again as Shaun mentions that could be due to temperature fluctuations in incubation.

6 is the main reason I said YB, its colour and pattern seem very different to anything you would expect from any single genes involved. There is a fair few "O"s aswel, but on the other hand, the lack of hooks makes me question my guess. This could just be down to incubation aswel.

Again I would take others guesses over my own.

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I’m just trying to look at the bigger picture I guess you would say. Patience has always been my downfall when it comes to eggs and hatchlings. I used to open egg containers frequently candle eggs all the time, and finally cut eggs sooner than I should have. All these things always lead to less than optimal outcomes at times. When the head size is that small in my experiences it has usually been from an underdeveloped snake. Not everyone uses the same incubator. So not everyone’s holds perfect temps during the entire incubation process. Which is fine and you can still hatch perfect hatchlings. But when you add in air exchange opening tubs and cutting eggs early these types of things happen. My eggs and @eaglereptiles thomas’s eggs at 50 days may not be at the same stage of development. I try my best to never cut eggs until I have some piping. But I don’t always wait either. But until you get a few seasons under your belt and know your incubator well, I would suggest avoiding cutting eggs early. I speak from my own experiences and failures. No judgements here. When I first switched over to my new incubator I didn’t take enough time double and triple checking how well it performed. It cost me a lot off eggs. I have since fixed it and i have had Zero issues with it since then. Some times sit back and wait is really the best advice with certain things in this hobby.

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Thanks @saleengrinch, could I pick your brain on a few questions?

First the answer to your questions, my incubator is set at 89 degrees, it seemed to stay pretty steady not fluctuating more than 1 degree, also our first clutch didn’t have any issues.
Unfortunately, I had to be out of state for a family member’s funeral during their hatching time so I did cut the eggs the night before I left trying to make sure a friend didn’t run into any issues while I was gone, they were cut on day 50. Since I wasn’t here I can’t be sure how often it was opened to check on them or for how long each time

Your opinion seems to make a lot of sense for the outcome but here is a little more info to give you a better picture and get your thoughts. Hatchlings 1-4 which appear to be the most developed to me hatched on day 54, 5 and 6 that look less developed hatched on day 58 and today is day 60 and there is still one in the egg, number 7, (it doesn’t look to strong and don’t think he will make it). does that make sense that the ones that hatched earlier are more developed? all 1-6 are very active and seem to be fine right now minus being small, also for more information, this group all weighed between 52-63g where our other clutch were all between 68-74g.

As far as other questions, is there anything I need to be watching for with these guys? If they make it will they grow into being normal dimensions (heads grow mainly)? I know you said 1 looks to be black pastel enchi pinstripe banana, what would your opinion be for the others? Is 5’s weird pattern due to not being fully developed? will he change? and lastly, for this post you mentioned black pastel and enchi being allelic, is there a good place to learn more of that type of stuff in general, or is it just from experience and researching specific combos as you have them over time?
thanks for your help!

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On here :wink:

Allelic Morphs and complexes

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@eaglereptiles awesome! Thank you!

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@kns_exotics Sorry to hear about your loss in your family. You want to make sure the tub there in stays damp until they shed. There weights aren’t actually that low. What I’m more concerned with is that they look underdeveloped. With that being said things to watch is they look active and healthy. Did they absorb all the yolk sac? This will be there nutrition until there first meal. So if any didn’t absorb it they might not be able to make it long. If this is the case I would try and feed them before they shed. If they don’t eat then and appear unhealthy and sluggish you may have to choose if you want to take more drastic measures to get some food in them. Sometimes though hatchlings just don’t make it or fail to thrive. It’s one of the hard parts of breeding snakes. As far as there head and body type I guess you would say lol. There head will grow into there body eventually as long as there healthy and eating.
This website is the place for information on all thing snakes. There are many people on here who know twice as much as I do on here. Also the interwebs is full of info on the complex’s alleles and different gene information. #2 black pastel #3 banana black pastel #4 black pastel pin #5 enchi pin #6 normal

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@saleengrinch that’s good to hear about their weights, all 6 absorbed their yolk sack and are extremely active so hopefully things will go good.

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@kns_exotics Good luck! I hope they thrive for you! I wouldn’t mind seeing pictures when they put some size on. Curious to see how they age!

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What I am seeing with the last two animals is defects due to incubation issues and nothing more. Hatchling 5 is an Enchi Pin and hatchling six is what the hobby generally calls a “Jungle”, and is not genetic

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I think it would be very interesting to get updates on how #5 does longer-term, if you have the time.

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