Morph Issues [Ball Pythons]

[chesterhf]

@wreckroomsnakes

Has someone actually linked the wobble to neurological issue? Last i heard it was speculated it had to do with a protein or enzyme missing …

The spider wobble has been linked to inner ear issues in a preliminary non yet peer reviewed study - Malformations of the sacculus and the semicircular canals in spider morph pythons

[ascended]

@ascended

1, Do BUG eyes cause health problems,
2, is it genetic in the offspring? so will a bug eye in the breeders make a bug eye super lesser more likely in there offspring?
3, should I care if I like the look of BUG eyes in super lessers?

@owalreptiles

1 No
2 I’ve seen anecdotal evidence of it being some sort of polygenetic.

Thanks that answers Q3 I like Bug eyes so why worry

[ashleyraeanne]

@t_h_wyman

Sorry to supersede you here Matt, but the bug-eye is absolutely associated with the gene. It has to do with the melanocytes not forming a proper basement layer in the developing eye-cup.

This is why in every species that has a leucistic mutation we see bug eyes. Like rat snakes of various species. @ascended In rat snakes the bug eyes can be bad enough to make it easier for the snake to hurt their eyes and I have heard of some rupturing. In BPs I don’t know if it can get that bad, but it is still a genetic defect and needs to be listed like all the others. Also, @t_h_wyman do you think bug eyes could effect the vision of an animal? I have never really thought about it, but I feel like it could.

[wreckroomsnakes]

thank you for sharing it. It does state it is a hypothesis and not proven yet but it does make the most sense out of all the “theory’s “”

[ascended]

@ashleyraeanne

This is why in every species that has a leucistic mutation we see bug eyes.

yes agreed I get its a leucistic thing, but I don’t understand why doesn’t every leucistic ball python have bug eyes.
My question about genetic was more about will a BUG eye leucistic ball be more likely to produce a BUG eye leucistic ball.

PS my leucistic seems to have slightly larger eyes, but not bug, and anecdotally seems to rely on sight for feeding more than my others, making me think it might improve sight. I guess there’s a point where the exadurated shape of BUG would distort images. Just a guess.

[ashleyraeanne]

@ascended

but I don’t understand why doesn’t every leucistic ball python have bug eyes.

Not all of them have the “melanocytes not forming a proper basement layer in the developing eye-cup.” To quote from @t_h_wyman. Just like not all rat snakes have bug eyes. Some of them have their eyes develop as they should, and some don’t.

@ascended

My question about genetic was more about will a BUG eye leucistic ball be more likely to produce a BUG eye leucistic ball.

Given the way we try to avoid bug eyes in rat snakes is to not breed bug eyed animals much, and to not breed them to each other, a bug-eye+bug-eye lucy probably has a higher chance of it’s offspring not having properly developed eyes. Which does make sense. In rat snakes not breeding a lucy to a lucy and instead breeding the lucy to a rusty (aka “het” lucy) seems to make bug-eyed animals less often too.

[inspirationexotics]

You said yourself that nothing stays secret in this hobby for long, so by your own admission, if phantom did increase the wobble in champagne or any other neuro gene it would be common knowledge by now. Since it is not common knowledge, it’s a reasonable assumption that by my own observation and everyone else’s it does not have any impact on existing wobble morphs. That’s not speculation, it’s an observation of all existing evidence.

[lumpy]

@inspirationexotics

That’s not speculation, it’s an observation of all existing evidence.

It is speculation because you’re not having the same individual and removing the phantom gene and seeing if the wobble increases or decreases. Outliers often have to be identified in statistics because they can harm the statistics. Even with without removing the gene, this is going against all the other evidence provided by “hands on breeders” of these animals.

[phantom_hatchery]

By that logic we wouldn’t know that spotnose with say spider creates a severe wobble

[lumpy]

Sorry I was still finishing writing, it’s a style of writing for debates.

[wreckroomsnakes]

@phantom_hatchery

spotnose with say spider creates a severe wobble

depends on who you talk to with this one. Have no first hand knowledge, never bred spotnose and spider together. some said it has slight wobble other say severe.

[inspirationexotics]

I get the point here, but if we’re going by the textbook definition of speculation then almost every other observation that’s been discussed in this thread is also speculation. My assertion based on evidence that phantom doesn’t affect wobble genes more severely is no more speculation than any others in this thread. I dare say there have probably been more phantom/mystic champagne combos bred than blackhead spider combos, but it’s not considered speculation that blackhead and spider together cancel out the wobble syndrome?

[inspirationexotics]

I for one would love for there to be scientific testing on what causes the wobble, how different genes affect it, the mechanism behind it, etc. I think that info would greatly benefit everyone. But no one wants to fund it, and until we have that, everything is essentially speculation based on known evidence.

[wreckroomsnakes]

@inspirationexotics

You said yourself that nothing stays secret in this hobby for long, so by your own admission, if phantom did increase the wobble in champagne or any other neuro gene it would be common knowledge by now.

So i am confused. You agree that nothing stays secret just based on this, but somehow spotnose is the big secret???

[lumpy]

Not true, in this case it is; personal observations of others animals vs someone who breeds these types of genes as a professional.
There is a vast outweighing amount of evidence on Mary’s part, not only due to her breeding background, but also that other breeders of these animals back her observations.

In science, we always prefer more data and lean on the trends of the data.

[t_h_wyman]

@wreckroomsnakes

f anyone has looked into why some babies will forgo their “first shed” […]. Could it be an issue with something missing in the yolk or incubation error? I know if have had a few babies over the years that have done this

I have popped out about one a year. I have never noticed any consistent variable among the clutches.
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@phantom_hatchery

I do find it extremely fishy that spotnose does make the wobble worse when paired with other wobble morphs

Why then do you not find it fishy that no one talk about single gene Sables wobbling? Or single gene Cypress? Both of them make the wobble worse when paired with other wobble morphs?
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@lumpy

Stress can cause all snakes to “shake” their heads slightly, I have experienced this over many species of snakes that I have had the privilege of interacting with. Wild snakes/WC being handed is a great example of a snake in stress. New environments also cause the same type of stress. So yes, an expo is not a wonderful place to decide if an animal has a wobble.

^^^
This bears repeating.

There is a difference between an animal showing signs of stress and an animal showing stress-induced expression/exasperation of wobble.
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@wreckroomsnakes

Has someone actually linked the wobble to neurological issue?

If the recent pre-print that Hilary posted proves correct, it is not neurological at all. But most of the hard scientists in the hobby have been saying that for quite some time
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@ashleyraeanne

Also, t_h_wyman do you think bug eyes could effect the vision of an animal? I have never really thought about it, but I feel like it could

Any deformation to any body part has the potential to effect the overall function of said body part so I am sure that the possibility exists but based on the limited behaviour I have observed in only a handful of animals, I have not noticed anything
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@ascended

but I don’t understand why doesn’t every leucistic ball python have bug eyes.

Given that there are examples of Spider out there that twirly-bird like a drunken gyroscope in an earthquake, why does every Spider not twirly-bird like a drunken gyroscope in an earthquake?

Gene expression is rarely a simple binary, 1 or 0, on or off, process. There is stochasticity in all of this, which is why we see a range of expression
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@lumpy

In science, we always prefer more data and lean on the trends of the data

I will also note that I find it somewhat … irksome … that the same people who are vocal about their refusal to work with a given morph are also, contradictorily, seem to be the most vocal about their unfailing ability to absolutely identify the most subtle expression of a trait in that given morph, to the point that they believe their opinion supersed the accumulated data and trends

[wreckroomsnakes]

@t_h_wyman

Why then do you not find it fishy that no one talk about single gene Sables wobbling? Or single gene Cypress? Both of them make the wobble worse when paired with other wobble morphs?
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@t_h_wyman

I will also note that I find it somewhat … irksome … that the same people who are vocal about their refusal to work with a given morph are also, contradictorily, seem to be the most vocal about their unfailing ability to absolutely identify the most subtle expression of a trait in that given morph, to the point that they believe their opinion supersed the accumulated data and trends

Thank you Travis, you said it better than i could.

[snaxxs]

@wreckroomsnakes

This would be interesting to see if anyone has looked into why some babies will forgo their “first shed” and take on that wrinkly old man look. Could it be an issue with something missing in the yolk or incubation error? I know if have had a few babies over the years that have done this, and i always wondered why…

I have had this happen with a few hatchlings over the years as well and none were super ghi so I think this phenomenon has more to do w other factors besides just super ghi genetics. I had 2 of them last season, 1 was a single gene ghi leopard but it was also the smallest baby I’ve ever hatched @ only 19 grams from an extreme boob egg. It’s doing great now but I had to assist its first few feedings and didn’t shed its egg skin for almost 3mths. The other was a super citrus pastel whiteout highway, again a smaller than normal egg(hatched 28 grams), ate on its own but still took about 6wks for 1st shed.

I also have at least 1 carpet hatchling(normal size) per season that does this, last year it was the twins, but again hatched out much smaller than normal. So thinking under sized may have more of a correlation than other genetic factors. These weren’t incubation issues as all others from same clutch/incubator/environment shed/behaved/sized normally. Besides that 1st shed issue all have been completely normal in all other health/behavioral/growth factors. I’ve come to just expect it from at least 1 every season. Of course volume plays a role, the more babies you produce the greater chances of getting an anomaly. It would be interesting to know scientifically what the causes are.

[ballornothing]

With the Super GHIs it’s not just a skipped shed or shedding issues. Their skin literally doesn’t fit right for a few sheds until they ‘grow into it’ for lack of a better term. There seems to be a texure difference too. That second picture above from M.Joy is one of them post first shed. I’ve seen plenty of hatchlings skip their first shed, it’s not the same thing as what goes on with Super GHIs.

[crypticoils-pythons]

I’m excited to hopefully add some more data to this in about 3 years.

In the meantime Kobylka just put out a video showing off that he’s working with Super GHI Clowns. Maybe someone should ask his experiences with the volume he produces?