I’m thinking the 3rd one looks leopard enchi spider. But, you can see from the 1st 2 pics of the parents; there’s no Pinstripe in the pairing.
THe fourth and 5th have pinstripe as well. I may be wrong on the 3 it may be enchi spider. But you for sure have pinstripe in that clutch.
Maybe someone like @t_h_wyman could chime in on this with more real knowledge, but I wonder if it’s possible that the father is chimera. Or through some other mechanism has sex cells that inherited different dna than his skin cells?
Besides something like that or that you paired a pinstripe on accident one time and forgot about it I’m pretty stumped.
It’s also interesting/suspicious to note that it looks like you didn’t get any lessers. For 5 hatchlings that’s only a 3% chance. Sure it can happen and on its own doesn’t prove anything. But it’s another piece of data in this weird situation.
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It would be possible for the sire of this clutch to be paradox, but instead of it being visual, it could be that the gametes are a different genotype. It would be interesting to know what pairing he came out of. Mosaicism is strange but not entirely unheard of
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I agree completely on the Lesser front. Me & my wife were talking about that this morning looking at the babies. I paired a Cinnamon Yellowbelly to a Pastel Ultramel this year wanting Cinnamon Het’s & didn’t get a single Cinnamon out of the clutch so, it can happen. This whole thing has me stumped. I’ve never heard of an incomplete dominant “hiding” itself. I’m just hoping someone can give me some insight. I’ve even wondered that since “new” genes pop up in people’s collections; what’re the chances that an existing gene randomly popped up? I mean, nature doesn’t care about it being new or not, you know…
The fact that the father came from a Pinstripe pairing and the no Lesser babies make it even less likely that the pinstripe mutation just happened spontaneously to the father.
That’s what makes me doubt it could’ve happened but, I can’t figure out what’s going on. You can see that the dad obviously doesn’t have Pinstripe in him. Is it possible for the Pinstripe to be in him yet, not be visually expressive?
Chimerism may explain what is going on here. Chimerism is when an organism has cells with different genetic makeups from the fusion of two or more zygotes . If the zygote of the sire “lesser spider”, fused and absorbed a pinstripe clutch mate, then he could be visually a lesser spider with pinstripe sperm as well as his own. It’s obviously not a spontaneous de novo mutation in the sire, because he doesn’t show pinstripe, and there’s no way the same de novo mutation occurred in multiple offspring.
Does he have any evidence of visual paradoxing?
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That’s cool, I only thought that happened visually with chimera though. No, he doesn’t have any visual paridoxing.
The other thing that I didn’t see an answer to, which may actually be the most likely thing here though:
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It can happen non visually as well, but might never be detected depending on what tissues the cells makeup and at what stage in development it occurs. For example if a banana ball python embryo fused with a normal to create a paradox/chimera, it could look visually banana but have cells with the “normal” genotype making up some of its internal organs and you might never know.
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No chance of that. I do have other pinstripes but, she was a virgin & it was a specific pairing to see if he proved Het Ghost or not because my other visual ghost was paired to my Pastel Ultramel to make dbl Het’s.
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Gotcha. That’s very interesting & for now is the only explanation that makes any sense. I think I’m going to get an adult female normal & pair him to her next year to determine what’s going on.
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That’s a good idea!
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I concur. Chimerism might explain it. In this case it would have to be the “hotdog in a tube sock” kind of chimera, which I have only seen one other solid candidate for previously. What were the pairings that produced the sire and dam?
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That said, I would not rule out an accidental pairing with a Pin. I know you say you did not put her with anything else but is it possible she was next to/above/below a tub with a female you were pairing to a Pin and you mistakenly blind grabbed the wrong tub? Or that your wife helped you by pairing while you were out of town for a week and accidentally put the wrong animals together? Or that you tossed two animals together in a tub while cleaning? Or that you threw a random male in with the female just to stimulate her to feed? These things happen more often than we realize and I have seen cases where even five minutes together was enough to end up with a clutch
I had a RedStripe clutch one… nine babies, eight of which were RS (and also, eight of which were male). Sometimes the odds gods are just fickle LOL
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That’s a fantastic analogy, this is the stuff they give doctorates for
I’m really curious to see what happens when he’s bred again, because that will prove whether or not it was a mixup or something more occurring. I’ve never seen a chimera without visual markings, but with a different genotype of gametes, but know it’s possible.
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I go for the analogies that I think make the best visuals LOL
Ben Rennik had an absolutely normal, in every sense of the word, female that regularly produced Pastel offspring. These odd balls are out there, the are just particularly rare in my estimation
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He actually went deeper into this “hotdog in a tube sock” a while back, definitely one of the wilder educational rides from Travis
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I might have been a part of that thread now that I think back…
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The sire came from a Queen Bee Leopard x Pinstripe pairing. Other than that, I can’t figure any other way for the Pinstripe to be there. My wife doesn’t deal with breeding so it couldn’t have been that… I think its a form a chimeraism. I’m going to breed him to a genetic stripe this season to see what comes out. It’s definitely a head scratcher for sure but, I’ll keep this thread updated! I know there has to be others out there, like Ben’s; I’m not That lucky😂! One of the babies literally looks like when you don’t line the wallpaper up exactly & you see the slight shift in pattern right down the the dorsel.