PayPal DOs and DON'Ts

Today I didnt make a purchase here onmorphmarket because they aske me to pay friends and family

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Don’t leave your credit or debit card info on the site. If you add your card, immediately delete it when you’re done with transaction. I’ve had my info hacked four times already cuz I forgot to do that. I remember to on other sites, so I know its paypal. Had several unauthorized uses that I had my bank shut my card down, and send a new one. And disputed all the transactions, and luckily got all my money back. Had one case they tried to charge over $3000, and it wouldn’t go thru, so they kept trying smaller amounts. Got down to a certain amount, and gave up. But its almost like paypal is hacker central.

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All you have to do as a buyer, is send 4% more. Then you don’t have to worry about friends and family.

As a seller, it is genuinely appreciated when a buyer covers the fees. It isn’t a requirement, but you feel that when you are potentially loosing a decent amount of money to PayPal.

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As of 10 days ago, I don’t accept paypal for payment. Still fighting a false claim from a buyer.

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This one is a bit long but stay with me because its important k? There are other reasons that reputable breeders with great reputations will ask for “friends and family” or to use venmo or such apps. Its not about paying the 3% fee. Its because both buying and selling require a bit of trust.

Lets say you sold an exceptional animal to a person at a show. They don’t have cash and they want to pay via paypal. So you say sure no problem. Money is sent, you receive the money, and they walk away a happy customer with a great new animal.

All is well until one day (you wont know when) 1-90 days later when you get a disputed payment claim on your paypal account and your money is just missing or “on hold”. Maybe it happened because of something mundane like your customer’s wife doesn’t recognize this random paypal charge and calls the bank to dispute the charge, or you were targeted by a scammer who deliberately “buys” then disputes. Either way now you, the seller, who did absolutely nothing wrong, are robbed of the money you rightfully earned, plus fees, plus you take a hit with your credit with paypal, AND you don’t have the animal either, which gives you a little anxiety for the animal’s well being as it calls into doubt the character of the type of keeper that animal is now with…

The “buyer” gets to keep the animal (that you’re now concerned about) free of charge, and you’re in a worse position financially (and mentally!) than when you started. It’s called a chargeback, and paypal “goods & services” is hands down the easiest and most common payment method used to get away with it.

All a “buyer” has to say is “I don’t recognize this charge” or “I didn’t receive it” or even something ridiculous like “eh its a shade different color than advertised” is enough. Doesn’t seem to really matter to paypal the excuse. The burden of proof is entirely on the seller and unless you have a written “peace treaty” or some form of evidence available on demand to prove that they did in fact willingly purchase, and receive, exactly the animal you sold them, exactly as advertised, you’re getting screwed. Sometimes you still get screwed anyway if paypal decides to hide behind their “no animal sales” rule.

And it gets even more complicated then that! When a seller scams a buyer there are ways to get your money back, and there are forums and groups like this to warn others, to ruin reputations and shut them down. I’ve been around in the industry long enough to notice that “empty box scammers” and the like get shut down real fast, but in a vendor situation you don’t always have a record of every customer’s full name, what email address they use for their paypal account, and what they bought to be able to out the scamming buyers. Plus, outing a scammer buyer can have blowback on you as a seller too.

Knowing all this, having to go through it yourself, or watching another reputable seller friend go through it is what makes most sellers refuse to accept paypal goods and services as a payment option. If you stuck around long enough to read this than I hope you can see how professional, reputable, sellers have valid reasons to be uncomfortable with it. Its really not about being greedy or “sus”. Its about not knowing you.

So if you come across a steller animal, from a breeder with a stellar reputation, and they dont accept paypal goods & services-- please consider that they may have been burned in the past and they, like you, are navigating a world where a handshake is no longer all that is required to feel safe in business transactions. Think about it k?

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Spent enough time on the FBI page on Facebook, it makes my extremely hesitant to sell online. We are super tiny, working on our 3rd season. I can’t afford to have a scammer involved. It always appears way too easy to get your money back and a free snake via PayPal. I think people are going to have to ve ok with whatever means the seller says a way to pay. You can always do bank to bank transfers, money orders too. Sellers have to protect themselves and I personally never seen as much scamming and fraud anywhere else. It seems to run rampant in the ball pythons community.

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That’s all well and good when it is an established seller with a good reputation, but there are also many new and small breeders out there selling online who haven’t built up the reputation and proven themselves trustworthy yet. I bought a snake from one of these sellers this summer, and when they said they wanted friends and family payment to avoid fees, I offered to cover the fees (it ended up being an extra $10). All went well with the transaction, I left them a great rating, and now if I buy from them again I might be more comfortable paying friends and family. As a grad student I don’t make a lot, and can’t afford to take chances either. While I agree there should be an element of trust, people have been scammed on both sides.

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There have been a few times when my wife has sold something online and made me record her wrapping it, labeling it and then the whole journey to the post office, up until it is scanned by the worker there… All in one long video, just incase there is a issue. If there is, we have evidence that it is either the post office or the recipient at fault.

If you can do the same (obviously when your sending 10 snakes to 10 different people then it’s likely not possible) I would recommend it.

Any extra steps you can take to insure yourself are always useful.

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When using PayPal at a show, I always use friends and family. Online with a seller I don’t know well, I want the protection protection from good and services.

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So why would friends and family be better in that situation? Or are you saying don’t use PayPal at all?

As a seller, if you want to CYA then there are some best practices you can follow to help your case with PayPal should the need arise. These are general suggestions and can pertain to selling anything online to strangers when using PayPal, and not doing it through a third party site (like eBay or Swappa, which have their own agreements, ToS, and protections.)

  1. Have an agreement. It can be short and sweet, I agree to do this if you agree to do that. We recommend you do this in order for us to guarantee that, etc… Have this signed (eSign) and dated. Make sure the buyer’s contact information is on the form, and that it matches their PayPal account information. Have it reference an animal ID number.
  2. Generate an invoice. This should be itemized and include animals with description (with the ID number from the agreement) and shipping charges. You can generate this through PayPal and the customer can click a link directly from it to pay. This is proof that they agree to pay these charges for these specific things.
  3. Don’t do friends and family - ever (unless of course it is indeed a friend or a family member.) These transactions offer no protection to anyone. Paying transaction fees is simply a cost of doing business, there should be a line for it on your income statement under expenses. You can deduct it from the amount stolen from you by the government.

An obstacle that I see using PayPal and shipping would be folks who insist on shipping to a HUB. I prefer that myself, I’m not waiting around and worrying about my new snake on a truck all day; but PayPal wants you to ship to the address linked to the buyers account. A remedy for this would be to suggest to the buyer to request holding the package at their HUB location. You could easily add some language to your agreement (that gets signed before any money is exchanged) that requires this in order to provide an extension to whatever health/live arrival guarantee you provide. Get creative, but be reasonable.
The most important line on your agreement should be “should litigation become necessary, buyer agrees to litigation in the county of the seller’s residence.” I’m not a lawyer, but I spend a lot of my time making sure I don’t need one.

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Naturally, I made the assumption that you wouldnt want to purchase an animal from someone who was entirely new and you didnt feel you could trust. If you want to buy your stock from someone entirely new and have no way to background check then more power to you, but no one is forcing you do so either. :woman_shrugging: Everyone is very aware of the fact people are scammed on both sides, and there is risk.

My statement was simply to consider not lumping everyone who is uncomfortable with using goods and services as greedy or suspect, because there is valid reasons for people to not want to use it. We all know how expensive this hobby can be. Many breeders dont make a lot and cant afford to be scammed either.

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You cant chargeback the money sent via friends and family, only goods and services.

So if you’re a consumer consider leaving yourself open to being ripped off out of courtesy for the seller not wanting to be ripped off? :joy:

Yeah no thanks.

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With all the scamming going on these days, we’ve been recording boxing video’s for seller protection. I’m not a huge fan of PayPal, but we still use it to send and receive payment. As a seller, I request the customer to send funds as Goods and Services, so they are covered. I do give the option to generate an invoice so they can pay direct via credit card. Any fees incurred I claim as COGS. The fees are minimal in the grand scheme of things. However, if it’s a new customer, I ask for their phone number to call and chat with them before funds exchange hands. Gives me a better idea of who I’m selling to, and gives them peace of mind that we are a legit business.

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@elementalherps

This, all of this. That’s some good policy right there. And to have a breeder -want- to talk to the seller like that is amazing in my book. Even if it’s basic, short, and sweet.

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I always pay with PayPal and I always ship to my hub. When I pick up my animal, I show ID and sign for the animal. I have never had a problem shipping this way.

I can’t see how paying with friends and family at a show where I have examined the animal and am carrying it away with me makes me any more open to being scammed then paying cash would.

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Good point. I definitely didn’t read that carefully enough I totally agree a show is a different beast

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Update: I just beat the claim. Still not accepting paypal.

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