Spider Gene?

I’m sure that people will disagree with me, but I personally believe that breeding spiders is not ethical. Wobble is a well known, pathological genetic trait that accompanies all spider morphs, and the severity of the wobble will be present to one degree or another in all spiders. This issue could be solved by simply not breeding animals that carry the spider allele, but people consciously choose to do so because spider ball pythons are in demand. If no one wanted to buy spiders, this wouldn’t be a problem in the industry, and we wouldn’t be here having this conversation. Time and time again, I see breeders and hobbyists justify the continuation of a severe genetic defect being bred into the population by claiming, “Not all spiders have bad wobble.” Bullshit. Any amount of wobble is unacceptable.

Variations of this discussion are currently happening all throughout the pet trade. English bulldogs are susceptible to a myriad of genetic issues including cardiovascular disease, respiratory problems, hip displasia, and internalized tails. Many bulldogs can’t give birth naturally and require a c-section for safe delivery. This is just one breed, too. It this really ethical? After all, we’re the one’s controlling the reproduction of these animals, and whether we want to admit it or not, we the ones culpable for the suffering that some of these animals endure as a result.

When you breed a spider and one of the hatchlings displays severe wobble, that’s on you. When the snake can’t feed properly, when the snake bites its self, when the snake misses a prey item and strikes the side of the enclosure, that suffering (and it is suffering, whether you have the honesty to admit it or not), falls on your shoulders. When the spider you bred can’t right it self, when it can’t properly discern which way is up, that’s something that you caused. I strongly believe that people should take responsibility for their own actions. When your spider hatchlings can’t function at the same level as that of a normal ball python, you are responsible. When you tell a new snake owner that wobble is an overblown issue, and that owner goes on to buy and breed a spider, and those resulting spiders suffer as a result of their inherited neurological disorder, you’re responsible for that suffering. You have to own that result, because that new owner made a decision based on what you told them.

Put yourself in the position of this animal. I’ll post a link below. How would you like to have to live with that for the rest of your life? That animal didn’t choose to be born. He had no say in the decision surrounding his breeding, but he has to live the rest of his life like that, unable to discern which direction is up or down. Who knows what other pain and suffering is going on beneath the surface? All we know is what we can see, not what may be happening on the inside. That animal will have to deal with that for the rest of his natural life, and you know what? It all could have been prevented by the breeder exercising just an ounce of empathy. But no, a $300 payday was more important than preventing a lifetime of suffering for that animal. Disgusting. Selfish. There are no other words that I have for this practice.

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Imma write a less combative response and be respectful of others here:

I really dislike the people that make those videos. I have seen dozens of spiders that are being kept with correct husbandry and while some may have a wobble to an extent literally none of the other severe symptoms you or that side describes are present. It’s my understanding that people making those videos are purposely stressing their animal to get them in a state where the wobble is as severe as possible to make their video “proving their point.”
Personally I think that is disgusting and selfish and by definition abuse. No respect for them and I don’t take that as evidence or scientific at all.
I’m not attacking you or anyone here but in your comments you’re just making a lot of assumptions about what is and isn’t suffering that have not been backed up by fact. We can agree to disagree on whether to breed the morph or not but something that IS a fact not opinion is the first spider was alive and well in the WILD. Not saying that 100% proves anything but it should be taken into consideration. Nature is brutal. Severe deformities don’t survive much less thrive.

My pastel missed a strike and bumped her wall last week. She isn’t suffering.

Everyone SHOULD follow their convictions…but I’d strongly discourage anyone from supporting the people that purposely mistreat their animals so they can make a wobble video. That’s not realistic, that’s not an animal being kept properly, that’s not ok.

That’s all I got. Hopefully no one feels personally attacked.

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here How about this if you guys wanna watch that video fine here’s a couple by someone who DOES care about his snakes and actually keeps them properly. Talks about spiders and their issues, shows the wobble, talks about how proper husbandry affects them and whether they have good quality of life:

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When I first saw a scaleless bp it wasnt the best picture and I thought it was a shriveled wee :woman_shrugging:
It gave me a bad feeling as well when I finally realized what is was.

deb posted that really good 3 part series by constriction addiction yesterday that did a great job putting some myths about it to rest. I feel like I know a little more about it before than I did.

Yeah rhat Half scaleless Chimera Spider with one working eye was COOL

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I felt the same way about the panda pied and the super black pastel. Some specimens were okay, but I saw a few examples of snakes that had seriously deformed mouths or pronounced duck bills. If we want to make an all black or an all black pied snake, a Suma (Super Mahogany) GHI (or black pastel/cinnamon) Pied is the better way to do it. I believe that the Abyss, a Suma GHI, produces a solid all black ball python that doesn’t exhibit currently known health problems. It’s going to take a while, but it’s worth it if it means that the health of the animals isn’t compromised.

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@joslinnd great point I didn’t even know suma was a thing for awhile.
But you should watch Matt’s video and see what you think I think he makes some very FAIR points and talks a lot more as a whole rather than picking out one individual and drawing conclusions.

(Btw I didn’t see the results yet but I saw someone with a possible solution to super black pastel with a slight change to their incubation method and at egg cutting it looked like it might have worked on a clutch but haven’t seen an paste yet to confirm.)

Have a great weekend everyone.

BTW I love to talk snakes and messages can only fit so much, if anyone wants to connect on FB and chat my page has like nothing on it cuz I just started but my personal one is under Tony T Snakes (turns out of you change your name on fb as a joke you can’t go back for 60 days reeeee) if anyone wants to be fransssss :slight_smile:

Do you have a link to his video?

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A little reminder here

Don’t divert a topic by changing it midstream.

The discussion is about the SPIDER gene, let’s remain on topic.

Thanks

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