Subspecies interbreeding

Hello again all, so my next question is what carpet python subspecies are compatible wkth eachother? I have seen IJ, Darwin, and Coastal mixed together pretty often, but rarely see jungle, diamond, or bredli mixed. Is there a reason for this? Can they be cross-bred? For example i like the jungles pattern, could i crossbreed it with another subspecoes to try and give the offspring color morphs down the line while trying to retain that pattern?

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Hi. All carpet pythons can interbreed with each other. Diamond/jungle crosses used to be quite common. They can also hybridize with some other species as well (green tree pythons, for example).

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You don’t see a lot of diamonds I’m pretty sure because that you have the fact that you they can be fine for the first for years and then out of nowhere they just die

There is no genetic barrier to subspecies so, as noted above, all of them can interbreed.

They also readily cross with the sister species of bredli and, again, as noted above, diamonds.
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The issue of “diamond syndrome” has been put to bed years ago - the problem was people keeping them too hot.

Diamonds are around, They just seem rarer because they are just higher ticket items as it takes them longer to mature and they fall outside of the cookie-cutter method of breeding so not as many people are working with them. But you can certainly find them if you are serious about acquiring them

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Anything can be done however and I have talk about this before your main issue is that serious carpet keepers tend to be purist (no integrate and serious about lineage) , than you have people in the middle that don’t mind intergrades but will care about percentages, than you have the average pet owners that does not care about all that and just want a good looking pet.

Years a ago I was breeding IJ Jag and decided to stop for 2 reasons

1# Because there was always the question of IJ jag siblings that were not really generating much interest.

2# The Jag issue itself which IMO was heading the same direction than the spider issue in BP.

I got back into carpet in 2017 and this time I am working with pure Albino Darwins that will be bred for the first time this coming season.

So when breeding carpets this is definitely something you want to think about.

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I do remember your advice and have not forgotten it. My mindset is if i do something thats been done before, the interest is likely to die down. However, even the purists can be swayed if you create a nice enough looking animal. Sort of like when people create hybrid dog species. Yes a purebreed will be more expensive, however if you establish lineage and make a line that holds peoples interest, it in itself becomes a desired breed even if it isnt pure. I hope to create something new, but to do that i need to understand what has come before as well as what the limitations are :slight_smile:

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With respect, you really need to do your research into the carpet hobby. No matter how “nice looking” the animal you make is, if a purist cannot document lineage data on it they will never even consider acquiring it. Depending on which purist we are talking about, they may (or may not) acknowledge that the animal is nice looking, but they will still consider it a mutt

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Completely agree that a purist will not be swayed by a good looking animal, and even the middle ground people who may not mind intergrades but still care about percentages and lineage will not sway that way either just because of looks, which will leave you with the average pet owner which has it’s own limitation 1# Popularity of carpet as a pet, 2# Budget

Your average pet owner when it comes to carpet will have a limited budget now the purist that wants a trophy animal with strong lineage will spend the money without hesitation.

The carpet world is a different world not like Ball Pythons and with animals like your sunglow which leaves you with a big question mark on lineage it will put you the pet category, which is not completely bad but will limit you (compare to someone working with pure animals with strong lineage)

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I can keep record of lineage for what i do as well as any snakes in my stock the breeder knew the lineage for. What i do know is that if i wanted to make an axanthic bredli (just as an example) and for arguements sake, one didnt already exist, all i would need to do is breed a bredli with an axanthic of another subspecies, line breed a pair to make an axanthic baby that will now be roughly 50% (genes are weird, so its plus or minus what genes go where besides the axanthic genes) then breed that axanthic with a bredly, breed offspring, bredli offspring, bredli offspring, etc, until the “impurity” is almost non existant, but the morph stays. Would it take a long time? Yes. But keep in mind many breeders are in it for money, so if it sells well and is repeatable, breeders are going to be interested. Maybe not the old timers, but anyone looking to make money will want a morph that makes money, mutt or not.

I can see where you are coming from. Im looking long term more than short term. I plan to keep my own records of what i breed, but am not too concerned about where it starts. Everything is about supply and demand, so far as i see it, if i can create a demand, then ive done enough. There are too many awesome creatures in the world for me to be limited by purism. If it doesnt sell to purists, it isnt the end of the world for me, this is going to be a hobby, not my livelihood. I agree i have alot to learn, but what sells and what doesnt isnt as big a concern for me. I need to know what is possible and what is not. If the animals sell for 60$ a piece but find good homes, it would not bother me in the slightest. My fulltime job is about 36$ an hour, and im not looking to be rich haha. If i can create something healthy, cool, and unique, then ill have achieved my goal! If it sells well, all the better.

You are missing the point. Unless you can trace your animal as, say, pure coastal blood all the way back to an origin in the US, there is not a single purist that will care about it. It is not a matter of knowing which mutts you bred to which mutt to make a new mutt, it is a matter of documentation of pure, uncorrupted, subspecies genetics all the way back.
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You can never make an Axanthic bredli, only an Axanthic hybrid with bredli blood. And as long as the Axanthic is in there then the “impurity” will always exist

And, frankly, if I wanted something that looked like an Axanthic bredli I would just buy a pure blood inland carpet from a well-established breeder in the community and not have to worry about “impurity”
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If that statement is not the epitome of ignorance when it comes to carpets then I do not know what is. Literally NO ONE that breeds carpets is “in it for money”. And if that is your mentality going in to it, then you are 100% looking at it in the wrong way
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Can you keep and house 20 (or 40 or 60 or…) mutts from hatchling to adulthood because no one wants them since they are just unappealing byproduct (as Deb so adroitly pointed out when discussing her IJ Jags)

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If it doesnt sell then i dont produce a new clutch until the last has moved. I dont HAVE to produce a clutch every year. I think you are looking at it from a sense that only purists buy carpets. Morph markets forum seems to be the only group i post on that has a large care for it. There is nothing wrong with it, but its not for me. Just like i wouldnt want to breed jags because i dont want to risk producing animals with health issues. Your entire arguement is based on if it isnt pure it is wrong, and there are way too many species and morphs in existence across the pet market for that to be an accurate statement. Will i ever be selling a pureblood snake? No. Neither do half the breeders out there if they are being honest. Now breeders that specifically focus on pure bloods? Maybe, but even then how many times have you heard the phrase “if thats what the breeder says it is, then thats what it is” to snakes that look like what the breeder said. I have yet to find anyone posting kineages that go more than 3 gens back, and thats not to say it doesnt happen, but its a niche group. Look at morphmarket itself and you will see that “other” has more than double the sales of any “pure” (which i would call into question how many of those pures actually had their pedigrees checked).

To say a good looking snake wouldnt sell just because it isnt a purebred is wrong by what i can see, and since you say you shouldnt be breeding with money as a motivator, but your only arguement against “mutts” is that they wont sell for as much, i do not see why we are argueing. If you shouldnt breed for the money, then what does it matter if i sell my snakes as cool looking pets for a price people can afford and are willing to pay? Again, this isnt a job for me, itll be a hobby. Im not supporting myself off the income, its just an experiment to see what i can create.

I just dont understand the argument. I definitely appreciate the advice, and ill agree that if purists were the market i was going for, then i would be better off picking a subspecies and sticking with it, and to ensure that i only purchase animals with a detailed pedigree back as many generations as it takes to prove its pure (however many gens that is, because again, ive yet to see more than 3 gen back pedigree). But since my goal is creation of something new, the purist mindset is the complete antithesis of what i am trying to do. If purists dont want to buy, they dont need to. If they sell for 100$ a snake, oh well, as long as i can ensure they find good homes. I find arbitrarily calling something bad because it has mixed blood to be counterproductive. If there is an actual problem healthwise that is caused by it, then by all means i would never want to do that, but if it comes out healthy, and looks neat, why wouldnt i? (besides i guess to please others)

Just to chime in, if I ever do by into carpets, I am going pure bloodlines. I would be buying it for a pet as well. There are less people ok with mutts than you would think.

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I disagree the main argument is based on your original statement of

We have already established there are different level of buyers you can open yourself to

Purists
Middle ground owners
Pet owners

But you will NEVER sway the purists and again pet owners are a limited group when it comes to carpets and you still have to address the sibling issue (do you know some breeders used to cull siblings because they were just UNDESIRABLE (and I am sure it still goes on))

Breeding is not just putting two snakes together a 10 year old can do that, it’s looking at what will you do with the offsprings, is there an interest, I am just gonna be stuck with a bunch of ugly undesirable animals, and you can learn the hard way or benefit from people that has an understanding of the carpet world and market whether you want to make money or not is beside the point.

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If you want to make hybrid snakes, might I suggest North American colubrids? Even I am ok with them since it makes completely unique snakes and all of the ones I have seen look amazing. They get bought up quickly once posted to MM as well. Meanwhile hybrid carpets look just like other carpets with different colors and there isn’t anything special about them.

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Actually, you’ll find colubrid keepers a lot the same, if not more dogmatic. The purist aren’t only against mixing subspecies, but even mixing local populations within the same subspecies. In other words, a snake found on this hill shouldn’t be bred to the same species/subspecies found a few miles away. Not that their is anything wrong with that. I also breed dart frogs. I would never mix local of different frogs.

With how many hybrid colubrids I see and how quickly they get bought even at high prices, they at least have a much better market. @thebeardedherper is working on a lot of projects that seem to be changing minds. He definitely changed mine. If he keeps up his work, then many people will likely change their mind.

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I actually have considered it, i was loving the corn/ratsnake scaleless variations and the drastic different colors and patterns they can have, and may still find myself swaying towards that depending on how my adventures go. We will see :slight_smile: ive seen some awesome variations of carpets in facebook groups that i dont see on morph market, so i think there is some potential and want to explore it. If i fail, i fail. My only concern is for the animals health. If its a financial failure, but i am not createing health defects, i can live with that.

i did say that, and if thats the point being argued, then i understand what you guys are saying. Sometimes i get lost in my own thoughts and space on the thoughts of 10 minutes ago haha. As for the last arguement, i have no plans to breed more than i can care for, nor do i intend to cull “undesirables” i am in no rush to breed. I intend to find good homes for the hatchlings (likely hold some back to work with hets and combining different recessives). But at the end of the day, if i fail it isnt really a loss to me. It isnt really planned as a source of income.

I feel that you guys are giving me excellent advice from the standpoint of what will most likely lead to becoming a successful breeder. Creating a product that is desirable, and still looks great. Where as i am looking to instead create something new, that did not exist prior. I definitely appreciate the advice and appologise if it seems as though i am being dismissive or standoffish about it. I do think it is good advice for anyone looking to succeed as a breeder. Im just special in the head and strongheaded. I would never be satisfied just replicating something somebody else did.

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ive seen ratcorns being pretty popular for their awesome patterns and colors, but retaining the corn snakes better temperment, but i imagine that they sell better to the pet owners than to breeders.