I draw the line here. The reptile has scales for several reasons and not having them affects its quality of life. It affects the ability to shed, prevent injury and move. So no, this is something that needs to stop and stop asap. Its wrong.
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I donāt have any particular opinions on scaleless in pure species other than I have no interest in them, but scaleless ācornā snakes are cringe because theyāre all hybrids
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I really just think they look weird, but as long as they can still live a normal, healthy, life, I donāt see too much of a problem.
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This topic has already been discussed previously, I think youāll find a solid amount of opinions in this thread:
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I equate them to hairless cats. An abomination and crime against nature 
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Come on, not an abomination 
This discussion is converting my doubts a bit.
also look at the cleaness of this animal in the link below, and also not so problematic shedding apparently if your prepared to do the work.
Pluss they feel real soft and nice 
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By the same logic so is; the Black Pastel complex due to defective head shape, the parts of the BEL complex that have micro/macropthalmia in the homozygous form, all wobble morphs across all species, probably all Snow combos across all species due lacking both melanin and xanthin/erythrin for how that affects vision. At a certain point of breeding mutated animals itās either all or none of it is, as long as the animal lives a normal lifespan without having a reduced quality of life.
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I actually really like scaleless, I dont have any so I cant speak to anything beyond the hairless cat comparison. I have a buddy that is majorly creeped out by them, he is the one that coined the abomination phrase so now whenever someone talks about scaleless I say that and chuckle.
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@themorphranch
Yea my emojis were supposed to emphasise our tongue in cheek humor and lack of seriousness on the topic.
I am old and maybe used the wrong ones
@ballornothing . I agree and would expand.
I love big blue eyes in some super lessers and it does not harm them and they thrive. Like I think you say. if healthy for any morph, whats the problem? correct me if I misunderstand your post.
As for regarding reduced melanin, yes I have one adult albino I bought with cataracts because their needs were not considers and kept under high UV light, but unlike a human albino that would protect their eyes with sunglasses, No UV for my albinos produced and they thrive and see OK.
Genetic diversity guarantees survival regardless of the changing environment.
Lets consider for one example, low light cave adapted snakes and animals where their genetic differences becomes the norm and facilitates survival, or any changes in the planets environment over time.
e.g this blind albino cave salamander-
Without genetic variation, life would not survive the changes the environment has or will have.
A mutation with whats seemed as problems to the norm, in the right environment can become dominate and the only survivor replacing the norm.
Life finds a way to continue.
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I feel like this might be partially based in misinformation/misunderstanding the mutation overall. The scaleless morph has naturally occurred in multiple species, with wild specimens found. In several snake species, for example, aside from obviously being more prone to certain types of skin injury, their quality of life is not impacted in any significant way. There are also different types of scaleless, as in BPs the belly scutes are missing, however this is not usually the case in rat or corn snakes. The latter also have no more issue shedding than a scaled specimen. In some reptile species, yes, scaleless specimens are problematic, however in others, theyāre no different than any other morph.
Almost all corns in the hobby, not just scaleless, likely carry some hybrid blood. This is due to how taxonomy has changed over the years, unscrupulous breeding, as well as the fact that even in their natural habitat, rat and corn snake species overlap. Unless itās locality with traceable lineage you have no idea, and even then thatās not a guarantee itās pure. Youāll actually find many species arenāt āpureā, so itās not a great attitude to have.
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Iām so captivated by how they look with all those wrinkles when they bend. I havenāt decided if I love it or hate it 
I probably would never get a scaleless because to meā¦scales are like the whole point. But in species that retain belly scutes and egg teeth, I donāt think their quality of life seems to decrease enough to be claimed as more of an issue than any other mild morph issues.
Now pythons and the naked bellies are a different story for me, and Iām more against those (with the morph example, Iād say its the difference between mild wobble morphs and severe wobble or duckbilling morphs in terms of breeding ethics), but if someone is willing to care for them properly, then I canāt really say much about it, right? I wonāt buy because Iād be worried about meeting their needs and keeping them safe, but that might be something easy for someone else to do in their situation.
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I have made a very similar point in the Spider debate thread. If you are going to start the argument about āmorphs with problemsā you are stepping onto a slippery slope that plays right into the hands of animal-rights activists because pretty much every mutation can be deemed a problem given enough argument
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At the end of the day, all of us are just keeping animals in boxes. Period. End of discussion. These animals are never going to see the wild again so any arguments about ānaturalā or āproperā go out the window.
All that matters is:
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Do you enjoy what you are keeping?
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Are you properly caring for what you are keeping?
So long as you can answer āYesā to your own personal animals, then that is where the discussion should end. Whether or not you like Scaleless makes no difference to whether or not I like them. You should not push your personal feelings onto anyone else. This is the same reason I would not slap a coffee out of your hands if you happen to like that disgusting vile concoction of Satan rather than drink the ambrosia that is chai tea
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Out of all the controversial opinions on this site, I find this one the most egregious
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Agreed. Coffee is the nectar of the gods, and I have now lost all respect for @t_h_wyman. (Just to be clear, Iām joking, drink whatever makes you happyā¦even if itās an objectively inferior beverage.)
Regarding the original topicā¦I donāt really have strong feelings about scaleless reptiles one way or the other. I donāt usually care for the way they look, although they do feel super cool. So long as those keeping them are informed about their needs and can give them any special care they might require (and I realise not all scaleless reptiles even have special care needs), then keep/breed them if you like them. As others have pointed out, whether or not they could survive in the wild is a pretty moot point so long as they can have a high quality of life in captivity. And in some cases, scaleless animals have been seen in the wild. As adults. So the āitās unnaturalā argument doesnāt hold much water as far as Iām concerned.
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I have found them to be more fragile than scaled snakes. Their skin is super super soft, lighter colored ones are almost see through. Yes, they are physically more fragile, because skin is more fragile than scales any day. But thatās not what really makes them fragile. Itās dehydration. They can get dehydrated so quickly, especially if you use a heat lamp. I would offer a sizable humidity hide and a sizable water bowl and keep the humidity a little bit higher than normal, but with good ventilation. And everything has to be clean. They absorb so much more crud through the exposed skin so you want it sterile.
I donāt think itās bad, scaleless snakes can live just as happy as any other snake, (except fully scaleless. Belly scutes are an important part of a snakeās natural locomotion so I donāt agree with breeding snakes without them.) But scaleless of any snake definitely raises the requirements of cleanliness and husbandry in regards to proper humidity and moisture control. So maybe donāt get a scaleless (letās say rat) snake thinking that you can care for it just like any other scaled rat snake in the same species. Trust me, I learned the hard way, so you donāt have to.
Also, i read someone saying that they only have ever seen young scaleless, and that they think they die at like 3-4, and Iām happy to report that (in my experience) thatās not necessarily the case. I have an aquantance who has a 7 year old reddish orange scaleless rat/corn named Bacon that is healthy and happy. I think the problem still is that the scaleless āmorphā adds a level of complexity to the care that most people buying one for the first time donāt really understand. You can have a great enclosure and solid parameters for normal scaled snakes of that species but still see them fail. There hasnāt been a lot of great material out there that Iāve found that really goes over the extra care requirements of scaleless snakes either. I would surmise that the high juvenile mortality rate has a lot to do with those factors.
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I agree 100%
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This has been an interesting thread to read on which I cannot comment because I have no experience or knowledge of scaleless snakes but I do like coffee, the darker the better, with sugar, skim milk and Ovaltine, over iceā¦ā¦ā¦
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That was an interesting read, thanks for sharing. Iād always heard/read that scaleless rat snakes didnāt really require any special care and could be kept just like their scaled brethren. But what you say about their skin being delicate and them being much more prone to dehydration does make sense.
I still donāt take issue with the existence and keeping/breeding of scaleless snakes, but just like with any animal, itās important to know and provide the proper care so they can have a happy and healthy life.
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I wouldnāt present this as outright fact, because your experience is not everyoneās experience. My scaleless hasnāt ever had a problem with dehydration because heās got access to an appropriately sized bowl and is fed regularly. The issues you saw may be partially due to the area in which you live and that climate. As for the, āthey absorb so much more crud through their skinā I highly question that assumption. Even scaled snakes still have skin between those scales, which is exposed to the elements. Again, scaleless specimens have been found in the wild, nature is not clean. As long as you spot clean your enclosures daily & deep clean regularly, there shouldnāt be any issues.
I also think the not seeing a scaleless over 2-3 was about scaleless BPs, not rat snakes. There is, as far as Iām aware, no difference between the lifespan in scaled vs scaleless rat or corn snakes. Right now, for example, there is at least one ten year old scaleless corn for sale on MM.
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