A post was split to a new topic: Reducing char limit
Incubation by MI will make no difference. The problem is inherently tied to the genetic mutation, raising or lowering the temperature at which the eggs are incubated is not going to suddenly change that. There are analogous mutations in many other species that have been studied ad nauseam but everyone wants to just ignore those in favour of believing that ball python genetics are something totally different from every other organism on the planet… It does not matter what the organism is, genetics is genetics is genetics.
This is why I’m working with a vet and an biology student in vet tech to see what these genetics have.
You say MI wont make a difference but has it been tried ? and is there back up to this data ? that my question
The question is, why do you think it will make a difference? Its a totally random thing to try with no evidence to support it, but evidence to say otherwise from other species. we haven’t tried rubbing peanut butter on the eggs either, but there’s less evidence to suggest that won’t work than playing with temps. We know raising the temperature too much will lead to small babies and unabsorbed yolks. Lowering the temps just makes it take longer to develop with no benefit besides it taking longer if that works out better for the keeper.
We went through this with the desert females already also, but if there is people out there who feel there isn’t enough out there to prove it to them, maybe your experiment will stop them. Its just many of us see the results of the experiment as already known and none of us like seeing unnecessary death. I justified my trails to myself, up til this point. I couldn’t do it anymore and I feel im adding any benefit. I actually called it quits before that clutch hatched because of other evidence I felt was enough to end the debate, just got lucky I had one sitting in the incubator that went full term.
You obviously missed my statement about analogous mutation in other species
I do not know if it has been tried and I do not care, it still will not make a difference. OWAL makes the point great with his extreme example of rubbing peanut butter on the eggs but since people tend to disregard extreme statements let me put the analogy in very simple, reasonable terms:
With Tourette’s syndrome there is a well documented secondary phenotype of OCD. Completely disregarding the statements of a doctor of obstetrics you have decided that you are going to force couples where both parents have Tourette’s to have children to prove your idea that only babies delivered by C-section will have OCD while babies delivered by natural child birth will not. And to help you in this experiment you have enlisted a wet nurse and a freshman pre-med student.
That scenario is utterly preposterous. If you were to bring that to an IRB as an experiment they would shut your lab down in five seconds.
But change a few words…
With Spider there is a well documented secondary phenotype of wobble/neuro/lethal homozygous. Completely disregarding the statements of a geneticist you have decided that you are going to breed Spider x Spider to prove your idea that only hatchlings from artificial incubation will have wobble/neuro/lethal homozygous whereas hatchlings from MI will not. And to help you in this experiment you have enlisted a vet and biology student in vet tech
It is the exact same scenario. It is still utterly preposterous. And yet for some reason you are convinced that now it is a totally different situation and has complete merit.
Valuable post for sure. I’ve seen a few of these over the years but very rarely are they documented so. Very important for those newer to the hobby to understand when planning future pairings.
Does anyone on here have any info on blackhead spider x spider pairings. Wondering if live super is possible in this situation since bh seems to cancel out all things spider. Im aware that some people think its allylic but i havent seem much more than speculation on it.
The BlackHead mutation does not act as a “cure” for Spider. The allele, which has been proven allelic by scores of breedings from many different breeders, is most easily thought of as being like an “equal but opposite” mutation to the gene.
Again, a quick analogy: If we think of a WT as being warm water then the Spider mutation is cold water and BlackHead is hot water. The cold and hot, when expressed together, result in warm.
But the median state only exists when both alleles are present. So when a BH/Spider breeds out all the Spiders from the clutch, having only the Spider allele, will express associated secondary phenotypes. So a BH/Spider x Spider pairing will not suddenly give you live SuperSpider.
I issued a challenge a few years back to a group of people that adamantly refused to accept that SuperSpider was lethal: Do BH/Spider x BH/Spider pairings and prove me wrong on the outcome of the clutch (SuperBH, BH/Spider, and either nothing or dead babies)… Funny enough, no one was willing to accept my challenge
Thanks for the reply. Been a curiosity of mine for awhile and haven’t been able to find much info on it. I dont have enough in my collection to warrent spending females on it for something with lethal eggs. Was planning on trying the bh spider x bh spider once I had the resources to do so but if they are proven allylic then it will be a waste of time.
Do you happen to have any links to past bh spider x anything pairings that proved it as allylic?
Most of them were on BLBC which is not defunct, some were on FB and finding anything in that mess is a nightmare. Try reaching out to Tallgrass Reptiles, they had a bunch of BH/Spider clutches and all of them produced only the single genes with no WT and no BH/Spiders. Brant from Major League Balls had a few as well but he pretty much went to ground after he got out of the game and sold off his collection
Thanks a ton. Ill try tallgrass
There’s a list of morphs that CAN cause health issue’s not just spider although its the only morph always in the cross hairs. Pain? I have a few with the spider gene in my collection some with wobble and some with zero. None of which have less a quality of life than any other. I see no pain… infact my fire spider has the worst wobble. Mainly when shes excited ie feeding time. Let’s flip it, all humans that are not perfect should be neutered and culled? Didn’t think so. Come on! Down of that high horse!
Pearl… but its still leathal some have been hatched none servive. Keep us updated
I just don’t understand why everyone wants to freak out about the spider wobbling, but everyone ignores the fact that Champagne and HGW also have the wobbles, even Super Sables. It’s really quite annoying that the Spider gene is the poster child and no one will even mention the Champagne, one of the more common morphs that I find getting people into the hobby itself.
That being said, I have a Stinger Bee I plan on pairing with my females, I understand the ignorance against the gene, it’s so sad. My boy is my strongest feeder and one of my friendliest, healthiest snakes aside from his very slight wobble. Only “Special Needs,” I have to do with him is make sure he gets the head of his prey item (f\t) or he gets confused.
Please, please, please do not count out these gorgeous animals as pets, or breeders simply because people can’t do research and find out for themselves that they are not in pain or agony due to a little genetic problem.
Thank you for posting this info. Seeing this proof of a lethal gene combo should sway others from a spider x spider project. As for the numerous cries for stopping the spider gene in combos, if you don’t want a spider, don’t buy one. If you don’t want this gene in your projects, don’t breed them. If you do, be honest about negative possibilities and inform those that do not quite understand.
14 posts were merged into an existing topic: Ethics of Spiders and Spider Breeding