Is there anyway the team at MM can revisit their calculator? I get a lot of questions about breeding and the calculator here sends people down the wrong path. For example if you put in that you are breeding het orange ghost stripe to phantom the results dont pick up the het orange ghost stripe/phantom offspring as a cow. Same goes for mochino and orange glow. I noticed the “breeding plans” addition coming and feel this calculator needs updated for retics before that helps us at all.
I agree! But I also think it is a little difficult to be completely accurate with retic morphs. For example they have the 3 types of Clark strain albino, which is compatible with several other morphs(mocha, indo caramel, ect) and even the platinum, lemon glow type genes would be difficult because unless you know what strain it is from, how would the calculator decide if it’s super form is gonna be luecistic, ultra, ect.? Maybe the calculator could offer/show different possible outcomes, depending on line/type as well as usual calculations. I am sure there is a way, but it does seem like it would be hard to do perfectly. Need retic and programming experts to get on this!
Allelic recessives just recently rolled out on ball pythons, I’m sure it won’t be long before they get around to other species.
I may be misreading (ive just opened my eyes), but the calculator does work with the retic complexes.
Yes it does work, I just think @amretics is pointing out some flaws and imperfections. Some of them like the velvet morph and super platinums I wouldn’t know how to really “fix” These are some examples I can see: the mochino and sunglow work fine as long as you input just albino but if you want to get more specific and put in purple albino or any of the 3 specific Clark strains it doesn’t:
The morph velvet doesn’t come up with tiger and genetic stripe either, but if it did it would need a note or something that points out velvet doesn’t occur as often as the ratio suggests.
With platinum x platinum it just says super platinum which I understand because there is 3 possible outcomes, but it could be confusing if people were expecting to see ivory ect. I wouldn’t know how to fix this mess unless totally changed, and the breeder would have to know what of the 3 types in “super” form it produces which would be almost impossible in a lot of cases.
In a perfect world, this is how I would handle platinums, but as stated above it would be nearly impossible now. But I will include it for all us retic nerds!
Platinum while most consider it to be co-dominant or incomplete dominant, I consider it to be a visual het. of the recessive form. Platinum, a.k.a. (fire, lemon glow) produce brighter colors in the visual het. form. When you have 2 platinum genes in a single snake you get 1 of 3 outcomes: Ivory, Ultra ivory and the pure white luecistic which in a large amount of cases is lethal, babies may live for some months but tend to have some digestive or internal deformity that kills most, (some think the rice line of lemon glow produced luecistics are healthy but I don’t know for certain.) Ultra and ivory are healthy. Unless your platinum comes from a known line of recessive(or super form as most would say) you can’t tell which of the three they will produce. That’s why I would propose calling them a recessive morph with 3 forms: (plat.) het. Ultra, (plat.)het. Ivory and finally (plat.)het. Luecistic.
Thank you for all this feedback. In fact, it’s already on my list and I’ve asked @eaglereptiles to figure out all the retic complexes and once he sorts that out and can relay it to me, we can update our data! I’ll let him continue the convo here.
Man, when did that get updated?? Would have been nice to be able to refer them to the calculator for breeding cows. I know It still doesnt work with OG for example if i know my snake is caramel&white and the other breeder is visual white albino.
@john this is wonderful news. Just know the hard work doesnt go unnoticed. It is very much appreciated!!!
This seems like the easiest and correct route to go. However as you note, it will be difficult to police who has what platinum line and what everyone is working with until there are some disappointed customers along the way.
- Platinum (Ultra)
- Platinum (Ivory)
- Platinum (Luecistic)
I take it from your explanation Nathan that these are incompatible with one another?
For example Platinum (het Luecistic) x Platinum (het Ultra) = ?
For example Platinum (het Luecistic) x Platinum (het Ivory) = ?
For example Platinum (het Ivory) x Platinum (het Ultra) = ?
So the right thing for us to do is really to get rid of the
Albino trait and leave
Albino (Purple Phase) and
Albino (Purple Phase). The standalone “
Albino” doesn’t really exist. The issue is that animals tagged with this trait need to be sorted into one of the White/Purple buckets … Which with 368 current animals tagged that way, its a hugggge task that would require a large amount of guesswork.
What we need to add are:
- Sunglow (Purple)
- Sunglow (White)
- Mochino (Purple)
- Mochino (White)
- Orange Glow (Purple)
- Orange Glow (White)
Plus any other Albino combos such as
Albino Super Sun (White)
Albino Super Sun (Purple)
But then this leaves a mess for Ruby Eyed Ivory - Super Platinum + Albino…
- Platinum (Ultra) x Albino (White Phase) = Ruby Eyed Ivory
- Platinum (Ivory) x Albino (White Phase) = Ruby Eyed Ivory
- Platinum (Luecistic) x Albino (White Phase) = Ruby Eyed Ivory
- Platinum (Ultra) x Albino (Purple Phase) = Ruby Eyed Ivory
- Platinum (Ivory) x Albino (Purple Phase) = Ruby Eyed Ivory
- Platinum (Luecistic) x Albino (Purple Phase) = Ruby Eyed Ivory
I think the platinum is getting skewed. There are two lines of platinum. There is lemon glow and “normal” platinum.
Super lemon glow is BEL
Super platinum is ivory
Platinum and lemon glow is ultra ivory
So i guess as far as platinum goes, Lemon glow needs added and how it works with the platinum gene needs worked in.
Also i know it opens a can of worms but i think het albino should stay. For example if i were to breed a snake that is only het caramel to A lav then all the offspring that are albino would be orange glow. Problem is it is a 50/50 to whether it is het purple or white since it could have gotten either from the lav parent. This is the same for mochino
Platinum cant be het Ivory. Its either a het Ultra or Het Leucistic. Think of the Super Platinum morphs the same as you would White, Lav and Purple.
White = Ultra Ivory
Lavender = Ivory
Purple = Leucistic
Also i do not believe anyone has bred a Platty X Lemonglow. I do believe that lemonglow is just an established version of plattys that we know are het Lucy.
Right, I’m following now. This is a complex.
Het Platinum - Ivory
Het Lemon Glow - Leucistic
Het Platinum + het Lemon Glow = Ultra
We can handle this situation with the “X OR Y” tag.
50% White OR 50% Purple
You also have the lavender versions
I really like this idea for Clark strain albino! Then you can eliminate just generic albino:
I wasn’t aware of this from @amretics
But if it is just the 2 strains and works as explained by @jk-reptiles
If this is true then:
Lemonglow and platinum should be different morphs.
Lemonglow x Lemonglow= luecistic
Platinum x platinum = ivory
Lemonglow x platinum= ultra ivory
Some people already consider them different morphs, and can be seen as such in other morphs such as: fruit basket(lemonglow X orange glow) and platinum x orange glow do look different to me. Although this is my personal view and is obviously subjective.
To make lemonglow and platinum different morphs if all of the above is true would be the easy, simple solution to this issue!
But I always thought like this about lemonglow(especially the rice bloodline)
I am not sure though that lemonglow and platinum are not interchangeable with people already using them that way, not to mention if you breed a platinum morph to a lemonglow morph it would be hard(probably impossible for me, or a non expert breeder) to identify the non super form as a platinum or lemonglow, which is problematic, and leaves me stuck with the best way to figure out this issue. Thoughts?
@eaglereptiles I really appreciate you taking the time to try to figure these issues out! I did not expect or think that it would be even possible to do, so thanks!
I think this would really clean up the Retic category and force more conversation between buyers and sellers, which is always an added benefit.
The X OR Y tag is a very new tool in our belt
Sounds about on par with what I’m understanding here.
Absolutely my pleasure. I appreciate everyone chipping in with what they know. Once we get this dissected we can work on the Morphpedia articles for these updates
Nice catch Riley!
I am not aware of anyone in the retic community explaining it like this. Like i said, I dont believe anyone has knowingly bred a lemonglow X platinum.
Cannot express my gratitude enough!!
Got one more to add to the list. Mocha and caramel show a visual albino like lavender. Dont really think there is a name for it. Most just say ‘Mocha Caramel’ but ive seen ‘Mochamel’ tossed around a few times
Super platinum = Ultra Ivory
Super lemonglow = BEL
Platinum lemonglow = Ivory
@jk-reptiles please confirm
Trait Changes to Make:
Platinum (Lucy)- (Leucistic = Super)
Platinum (Lemonglow)– as a line of Platinum (Lucy), (Leucistic = Super)
Ivory= Platinum (Lucy) + Platinum (Ultra)
Mochino (Purple)= het Mocha + het Albino (Purple Phase)
Mochino (White)= het Mocha + het Albino (White Phase)
Orange Glow (Purple)= het Caramel Albino (Syntec) + het Albino (Purple Phase)
Orange Glow (White)= het Caramel Albino (Syntec) + het Albino (White Phase)
Albino Super Sun (Purple)= Super Sunfire + Albino (Purple Phase)
Albino Super Sun (White)= Super Sunfire + Albino (White Phase)
Albino Super Sun (Lav)= Super Sunfire + het Albino (Purple Phase) + het Albino (White Phase)
Snow (White)= Anerythristic + Albino (White Phase)
Snow (Lav)= Anerythristic + het Albino (White Phase) + het Albino (Purple Phase)
Mochamel= het Caramel Albino (Syntec) + het Mocha
Platinum (Ultra)(Ultra = Super)
I dont understand why you are adding albino super sun if we can select which albino it is and super sunfire separately. I dont think it is a good idea to add those. For example. With revisions i could select OG(Purple) and super sun just as easily as selecting purple and super sun
I dont know where the Ameretto and Coral stuff is coming from. If im not mistaken those were names that people tried to get to take off to describe an OG(white) or an OG(Purple). I could be completely wrong so dont take my word on that one.
I also dont understand the purple caramel to lav caramel. A purple caramel is the OG(Purple) above.